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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,907 Likes: 113
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,907 Likes: 113 |
Here is something to throw into the evolutionary trail from the 1908 Sear, Roebuck & Co. catalog -- One of the links above said the .410-bore was being loaded in America by 1910. The book, Encyclopedia of the 410 Shotshell in American 1914 - 1942, says Remington-UMC introduced factory loaded .410-bore shells in 1914. There is no mention of such shells in the 1913-14 Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalog, but they do appear in the 1915-16 Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalog -- Winchester produced their first box in July 1915. Western Cartridge Co. began production in 1916. Peters joined the fray on July 1, 1917, becoming the fourth producer of .410-bore shotshells in North America. The last big J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. catalog, General Catalog No. 54, circa 1914, shows this gun and says "The Gun That Introduced .410 Loaded Shells" --
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
R-Man; Do you know when the .410 was introduced in England or on the Continent? I have a copy of that 1908 Sears catalog & had noted the little "Ladies Gun" before. Incidentally, "Equal Volume" for a ˝ oz load of shot would be around 35 grains of Black so that 40 grains in the .40-85 case would be a pretty p[otent load. Not overly so, but certainly no pip-squeak.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,907 Likes: 113
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,907 Likes: 113 |
I could read what is in Ron Gabriel's book, but I have no period British paper to confirm/refute/add to the mix. One other interesting U.S. item from H & R Catalogue No. 12, Copyright 1913 --
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,386 Likes: 1324
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,386 Likes: 1324 |
Miller, if I may offer what I have found in my readings and search for more depth concerning the .410 ............
I appears that the year was about 1882, in England. There exists a box of .410 shells that are believed to have been manufactured just after 1880. There are advertisements in 1882 issues of Shooting Times and The Field for the .410. Eley advertised a 2" Gastight loading in 1885. Sounds like that narrows it down to the very early 1880s.
As far as the "Continent" goes, there is mention of the .410 as early as 1886 in French cataloging. It is actually for a 12mm cartridge. Ronald Gabriel contends that, even though the 12mm cartridge is slightly larger than the .410, most consider it the European equivalent of the American and British .410.
There is much more info about the .410 in Gabriel's excellent book, IYI. And, Researcher may have more ........... I hope!
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,471 Likes: 489
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,471 Likes: 489 |
Those old H&R shotgun ads that Researcher provided mention a clambering for a .45-70 shot cartridge. I've heard of people who attempted to make shot loads using .45-70 brass for short range loads in various rifles, but never heard of a dedicated shotgun chambered for .45-70. Was this a handloading proposition, or did one of the major ammo manufacturers actually produce .45-70 shotshells? Seems like an idea that might have actually gotten traction, except for the potential problems of someone firing rifle loads in a choked shotgun bore.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Keith; That mention of the .45-70 shot cartridge is under "Ammunition" not under the gun list. At this point in time, there were many old "Trapdoor" Springfields out there which had been declared surplus by our Government, many of them sold through Bannerman's. My take here is they were simply listing shot loaded ammunition for these guns.
Incidentally, the first shotgun I ever shot was a little Small Frame H&R 28 gauge single hammer gun. It looked very much like this 1905 model but do not recall now if it was an ejector or non-ejector. I was never able to acquire it but did get to shoot it again later in life & also weighed it at that point. 4 lbs 2 oz. I believe it was either 26" or 28 " barreled.
Thanks, Researcher & Stan. I was pretty sure the .410 did not originate in the US but was not sure just how far back it went.
Researcher, sorry I got mixed up there in the previous post & gave you the wrong handle. You & the R-Man are both extremely knowledgable & I value input from either, just sometimes forget for sure which one has posted when I reply.
PS, meant to add the .45-70 case is of course too large to chamber in a .410. The ad from the Sears catalog Researcher posted did list the .40-85 Win round being used as a chambering for their little "Ladies Gun". A present-day .444 Marlin case will fit most .410 chambers, there may be some rim interference with some. This case is short so a ˝ oz load is about all it will hold.
Last edited by 2-piper; 01/16/19 12:39 AM. Reason: correct numerical mistakes
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,907 Likes: 113
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,907 Likes: 113 |
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 547
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 547 |
im still looking for a nice 24 and 32ga o&u....that works, and isn't ancient. no one has the newer ones.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,386 Likes: 1324
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,386 Likes: 1324 |
im still looking for a nice 24 and 32ga o&u....that works, and isn't ancient. no one has the newer ones. There's a good reason ........... SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 547
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 547 |
American arms made them a while back...but I missed them.
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