doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Anyone Familiar with a 9.3x58R Sauer Cartridge

During a visit with a dealer buddy last evening, he pulled out a German hammer double rifle chambered for what he described as a Sauer proprietary cartridge of 9.3x58R. It's a lovely, relatively lightweight little piece, with minimal engraving and fairly plain wood, but in wonderful condition for its age (proofed in 1914 according to the markings) and I'm interested in it. I've been unable to locate any information regarding the cartridge. All Mike could tell me was that he thought the cartridge could be formed from 9.3x72R.

So, is this a cartridge any of you out there are familiar with?

Thanks.

9.3x58R Koeffler made from .45 NE

Bavarianbrit:

Do you have any information on ballistics, standard bullet weights, etc.?

Thank you.

Rem

Best I could find for a Sauer cartridge

A chamber cast sure seems to be in order

Nominal Cartridge Parent Caliber Neck Shoulder Base Rim Rim Case Total Case DWM Roth NAI NAI NAI Balistek
Caliber Name Case Blt Dia. Diam Diam Diam Diam Width Lngth Vol. Cap. No. No. Code No. Ratio Code


9X58.5 9X585 Sauer & Sohn 9.3X82R 0.357 0.385 0.433 0.498 2.29 RM 5.29


www.castpics.net/subsite/Conversions/Conversions.xls

Skeettx:

Thank you.

Rem

Remington40x,
Skeettx is correct that your rifle is chambered for 9x58 1/2 R S&S. The confusion comes from two things. First, the most common source of donor brass to make cases from is the 9.3x72R.Cases made from this brass usually retains the 9.3 head stamp. Second, I have a friend that has an ED. Kettner double rifle made by Sauer in this caliber before 1912. The bore diameter is marked in the pre 1912 system(gauge) and is shown as 118,35 which is also found on a great many 9.3s of different case lengths. This is a pretty uncommon, but fun, cartridge that makes a useful deer rifle. In power, it is very similar to the 360 2 1/4"( 9.3x57R), but rather than a neck, the case is straight tapered like the other more common S&S cartridges( 8x48/58R, 6.5x48/58R, 6.5x40R, etc).
Mike

Mike,

I am a late entry into this discussion. I have a "guild" double rifle marked 118.35 and with case dimensions that appear close to the 9x58.5r S&S hat I saw on another forum.

Initially, I thought it was a slightly short version of the 9.3x65r as the case appeared to be 60mm long with the neck dimensions the same as the 9.3x65R Collath.

I assume it is an old black powder load.

Would the load be the same as the 360 BPE cartridge?

851c,
I just started working with a Husqvarna chambered in 9.3x57R/360-2 1/4", And as I recall the German load was around 1.8 -2 grams of R5 powder with around a 200-grain bullet. Axel uses VV140 to replace R5 due to a very similar burn rate. I happen to use IMR (military pull down) 4895 to replace R5, for the same reason. Of course, IAW normal handloading procedures you need to reduce the charge weight and work back up, watching for signs of problems. Older rifles may have used heavier lead bullets than those used today. The rifle will tell you what it wants as you search for a load that regulates. My rifle uses close to .370" bullet but yours would likely be around .358-9", most marked 118.35 are but you should slug the barrel. If the rifle is black powder proofed, a common black powder to smokeless conversion is 45% of the black powder charge in IMR 4198. Of course, the reduction and work back up procedure applies here also. I use original length (2.125-130") 38-55 cases, but most people use 9.3x72R cases shortened to around 2.250".
Mike
To answer your actual question, the 360-2 1/4" BPE load was 50 grains BP with either 155grain, 190 grain, or 215grain bullet. The Nitro for black load was 22grains of cordite with a 190grain bullet. The Nitro Express load was 30grains Cordite and a 300grain bullet.
Mike

Der Ami,

Thank you. I shoot 360EX and a 9.3x57R/360 (only difference is the 360EX has a thinner rim).

For the 360EX, I use 22 gr of IMR 4198 and bullets between 158 gr and 180 gr. My Lancaster likes 0.359" - 360" 158 gr cast bullets and my Henry likes 0.367" 177gr HC bullets and 180 gr HC GC bullets. My Reilly 9.3x57R has some mispires when I use thin rim brass. Buffalo Arms used to have 9.3x57R brass with a 0.060" rim but have been out of stock for over 2 years.

My DR which I now believe is a 9.3x58.5r S&S has a 0.355" bore and should shoot 0.356" HC GC bullets. I have some 180 gr HC GC bullets that I will swage to 0.356" and load with 22 gr IMR 4198 and see how it shoots. The brass was cut down 9.3x72R brass that had the neck area reduced in 8x58.5r S&S dies, annealed, and fireformed. I will seat the bullets with 360EX dies.

Hopefully the loaded ammo fits the rifle (for me, an issue), fires fine, and groups. Will check the velocity as I will be looking for 1700 fps. Is that a reasonable velocity?

I will be looking for 8x58.5r S&S brass that I can fireform into 9.3x58.5r brass. (From my web search, the 9.xX58.5r S&S brass isn't available but the 8x58.5r is sometimes available.)

851c,
I don't know what happened, I wrote an answer to your last post yesterday and it must not have been picked up. Being pretty "wordy" I wrote more, but the following is a shortened version. For the Reilly that misfires, I suggest you try 38-55 original length (2.125-130") cases. I often use them for different rifles and usually have to thin the rims but in my Husky 9.3x57R they don't need thinning. I have recently noticed that Starline has them in stock again, which means the regular suppliers should also have them. The 38-55 cases will be a little short but that will make little difference if you seat the bullet, so the cartridge has the same OAL.
I still believe your double rifle is 9x58 1/2R S&S instead of 9.3. I believe the confusion comes from the proof mark 118.35 which was often used on tighter bored 9.3x72Rs. Fireformed cases from a 9x58 1/2R S&S will show a tapered rather than shouldered case shape. You can use the long 38-55 cases in the double rifle, as well as the Reilly, but you may need to thin the rims. To use the 38-55 cases, you only need to size in 9.3x72R FL die and 8x58 1/2 die, FL if seating die won't get the mouth small enough. After fireforming, you can neck size and seat bullets in 9x57, or 35 Remington dies adjusted to the fireformed case. If the 0.359-.360" or 0.367" (not as likely) lead bullet will easily fit into the fireformed but unsized case it can be used "as is". Starline 38-55 cases (the long ones) will cost less than $1.00 ea., but 8x58 1/2R S&S cases will cost $4.00 or more ea. if you can find them. The 1700 fps is a reasonable velocity, depending on what you intend to do with the rifle. If you intend to hunt with it, you can likely speed the lighter bullet up some.
Good Luck,
Mike

Looks like a Sauer/S&S 9×58–58.5R type, those old German markings (118.35) confuse. Common practice is to form brass from 9.3×72R or long 38-55 cases and fire-form after annealing.
Slug the bore and/or do a chamber cast to confirm bullet diameter and case shape before making brass. Start loads very light (work up with IMR 4198/4895 or similar, watch for pressure signs) and have a gunsmith check headspace if unsure.

Der Ami,

Thank you. I shoot 360EX and a 9.3x57R/360 (only difference is the 360EX has a thinner rim).

For the 360EX, I use 22 gr of IMR 4198 and bullets between 158 gr and 180 gr. My Lancaster likes 0.359" - 360" 158 gr cast bullets and my Henry likes 0.367" 177gr HC bullets and 180 gr HC GC bullets. My Reilly 9.3x57R has some mispires when I use thin rim brass. Buffalo Arms used to have 9.3x57R brass with a 0.060" rim but have been out of stock for over 2 years.

My DR which I now believe is a 9.3x58.5r S&S has a 0.355" bore and should shoot 0.356" HC GC bullets. I have some 180 gr HC GC bullets that I will swage to 0.356" and load with 22 gr IMR 4198 and see how it shoots. The brass was cut down 9.3x72R brass that had the neck area reduced in 8x58.5r S&S dies, annealed, and fireformed. I will seat the bullets with 360EX dies.

Hopefully the loaded ammo fits the rifle (for me, an issue), fires fine, and groups. Will check the velocity as I will be looking for 1700 fps. Is that a reasonable velocity?

I will be looking for 8x58.5r S&S brass that I can fireform into 9.3x58.5r brass. (From my web search, the 9.xX58.5r S&S brass isn't available but the 8x58.5r is sometimes available.)

Mike, Thanks for your reply.

I agree that perhaps my DR caliber should be called a 9x58.5r S&S.

By the same vien, my kipplauf is really a 9.1x72r based on a "D" and not "E" case - it will not chamber commercial 9.3x72R ammo. Well the case I use is a 9.3x72r with the head reduced slightly and shoots a 0.359" bullet.

For my 9x58.5r S&S, I have 10 cases made from Norma 9.3x72R brass loaded with 180gr HC GC swaged 0.356" bullets. I will shoot those this week, just for functioning and velocity check. If it looks like it regulates and have ~1700 fps. I will take that rifle deer hunting. (North Georgia deer are not really large).

For the Reilly, I might try 375 Win brass which I have. It is slightly shorter (2.02") than 38/55 (2.085") which is shorter than the 9.3x57/360 (2.25").

I may also try lengthening the .375 Win brass by silver soldering a thin wall tube over the case and then sizing that in a 360 EX reloading die. I have done that before with other cases. It is quite a bit of work. If the parent case isn't shortened, it limits the bullet seating depth.

851c,
When I speak of using 38-55 cases, I mean original length cases which were 2.125-130" long. A few years ago, there was a "run" of 38-55 ammo for a commemorative rifle and they used 30-30 length (2.085") cases, for convenience. Since then, common 38-55 cases have been the shorter length. However, Starline makes both length cases and refer to the original length ones as "long". A recent check "online" indicates that the longer cases are available now (they are "seasonal"). I got my first 9.3x72R from a friend that had tried making cases by soldering cut-off 38 special case bodies to necked up 30-30 cases. He was very competent but was unable to make the idea work to his satisfaction. He used soft solder, and silver solder would take enough heat that it is less likely to be successful. If you have a .375 Win. rifle, you might be better off to save your cases for it and use fireformed 30-30 cases for the Reilly if you can't use long 38-55 or 9.3x72R cases; .375 Win. cases are not plentiful either. Some people with rifles chambered for 9.3x72R "D" form are able to use "N' (normalized) form commercial ammo by sizing it slightly in a 38-55 file/trim die or sizing die (the type that has the decapping stem in a bushing large enough that when removed will allow the cartridge to pass through). The cartridges only need to be sized enough to chamber. Once fired in a "D" form chamber, the cases can be reloaded in normal 9.3x72R dies. FWIW, chambering to "N" form from "D" form never required reproofing the rifle.
You mentioned that North Georgia deer are not really large, I take from that you live in North Georgia. What part? I have family that live in various north Georgia areas.
Mike

Mike,

I hunt in Norman Park, Hurd County and on Berry College. I live in metro Atlanta.

What part of east Alabama do you live? I had cousins that lived in Montgomery (I spent a couple of summers there) and have family that live in the Mobile/Spring Hill area.

After trying a 375W sized with a 360EX die and it reliably fires, I will look fir long 38/55 brass.

There are low temp "silver" solder that many gunsmiths use and that is what I have. The true 95% silver solder requires very high temperture and, as you comment, is unsuitable for brass exrension.

Are you planning to shoot in the Spring Rook, Sporting, & Double Rifle match at ORSA?

851c,
I live in the middle of Chambers County. If you go from Atlanta to either Montgomery or Mobile on I 85, the first Alabama exit you pass is 12 miles from my house. My family that lives in North Ga. lives considerably north of Atlanta. On the other hand, one of my grandsons' lives close to Mobile, on the east side of the bay. No, I'm not going to the match at ORSA, I can't shoot standing anymore and can only shoot from a bench or ground blind. I miss quail hunting most of all. Since Starline has the long 38-55 in stock now, i'll be surprised if you can't find some in Atlanta (the minimum they will sell to an individual is 250 cases/$180).
Mike

Mike,

Thank you for your reply. Too bad we don't live closer as it would be fun to get together to shoot.

On ORSA, Rick may be willing to let you shoot from a chair. It has been done before. Anyway, it is interesting to talk to other enthusiast of nice vintage guns. For me, seeing the match, interesting rifles, and talking to vintage gun enthusiast was worth the drive.

You would think that in a city the size of Atlanta, there would be several good sources of reloading supplies, but I get most of my supplies by on-line ordering. I have not be able to find any IMR 4198 locally except from another shooter that was downsizing his reloading. The big box stores have some reloading supplies as does Outdoor Adventures. Georgia Arms has more supplies but apparently were hurt by a fire. Deer Creek in Kennesaw may have 38/55 and I will check with them.

On the subject of my 9x58.5r S&S, the gun shot well. I was concerned about split brass as I had lost 9.3x82r and 8x58.5R S&S brass due to lateral splits that really show up when the brass is cleaned. I set the brass in 1/2" of water and annealed the whole body and experienced no wasted brass. Unfortunately, my Garmin wasn't charged but plan on shooting at River Bend in a week or so and will check velocity then. Of course, I am really looking for accuracy - both barrels regulating @ 50 yds. My load is 22 gr of IMR 4198 which is 44% of a 50 gr 2F BP load which seems reasonable.

Roy

Roy,
I even stopped going to gun shows with my buddies. The last time I went I was only halfway around when the rest of them were ready to go. This was even with my rolling walker. Before I retired, I lived in Columbus and set up at every gunshow. I mostly visited with old friends and watched for deals. I never sold enough to cover costs, but since I didn't have Motel bills and only ate one meal/day away from home it was worth the cost to have somewhere to sit both days. I mostly setup next to a good friend and when he walked around, I watched the tables and when I was gone, he watched. I always had a good time and found good deals. Sadly, Agent Orange got my Columbus buddy and this year one of my main local friends. I have good memories though. If you have a table, pretty often people sell their dad's reloading tools and components. I've often gotten good deals on powder and bullets and even some equipment sometimes. Twenty-year-old prices are usually pretty good.
Now I'm mostly trying to finish up projects and gather enough tools for my grandsons and great grandsons to have shops. If they lived closer, I could teach them, but they don't. Now, I will have to give them directions how to make cased and bullets for the guns I will leave them. This includes the conversion factors from Black powder to 4198 from Cordite to 4895 and from R5 to VV140 or 4895 and how/why to anneal the cases they make for those guns. This is obviously second nature to you, but someone will have to teach them.
Years from now, if someone needs help; I ask that you help them, you never know whose grandson or great grandson he will be.
Mike

Mike.

Times have changed. When we moved to Georgia, there was a true gun collector's association that put on nice gun shows. Today, the interest in guns has changed (evolved) to modern guns and assorted items for which I am no interested. The only things I have found interesting are reloading supplies (powder & primers) and, every now and then, someone shows up with a 50 - 75 year old gun. Even the Birmingham show has changed from a large, downtown show with numerous vintage guns to a much smaller show very few neat guns.

But, years ago, there were not forums like this so maybe all is well. Of course, I would like to go to a gun show with vintage sporting firearms.