doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Anyone Familiar with a 9.3x58R Sauer Cartridge

During a visit with a dealer buddy last evening, he pulled out a German hammer double rifle chambered for what he described as a Sauer proprietary cartridge of 9.3x58R. It's a lovely, relatively lightweight little piece, with minimal engraving and fairly plain wood, but in wonderful condition for its age (proofed in 1914 according to the markings) and I'm interested in it. I've been unable to locate any information regarding the cartridge. All Mike could tell me was that he thought the cartridge could be formed from 9.3x72R.

So, is this a cartridge any of you out there are familiar with?

Thanks.

9.3x58R Koeffler made from .45 NE

Bavarianbrit:

Do you have any information on ballistics, standard bullet weights, etc.?

Thank you.

Rem

Best I could find for a Sauer cartridge

A chamber cast sure seems to be in order

Nominal Cartridge Parent Caliber Neck Shoulder Base Rim Rim Case Total Case DWM Roth NAI NAI NAI Balistek
Caliber Name Case Blt Dia. Diam Diam Diam Diam Width Lngth Vol. Cap. No. No. Code No. Ratio Code


9X58.5 9X585 Sauer & Sohn 9.3X82R 0.357 0.385 0.433 0.498 2.29 RM 5.29


www.castpics.net/subsite/Conversions/Conversions.xls

Skeettx:

Thank you.

Rem

Remington40x,
Skeettx is correct that your rifle is chambered for 9x58 1/2 R S&S. The confusion comes from two things. First, the most common source of donor brass to make cases from is the 9.3x72R.Cases made from this brass usually retains the 9.3 head stamp. Second, I have a friend that has an ED. Kettner double rifle made by Sauer in this caliber before 1912. The bore diameter is marked in the pre 1912 system(gauge) and is shown as 118,35 which is also found on a great many 9.3s of different case lengths. This is a pretty uncommon, but fun, cartridge that makes a useful deer rifle. In power, it is very similar to the 360 2 1/4"( 9.3x57R), but rather than a neck, the case is straight tapered like the other more common S&S cartridges( 8x48/58R, 6.5x48/58R, 6.5x40R, etc).
Mike

Mike,

I am a late entry into this discussion. I have a "guild" double rifle marked 118.35 and with case dimensions that appear close to the 9x58.5r S&S hat I saw on another forum.

Initially, I thought it was a slightly short version of the 9.3x65r as the case appeared to be 60mm long with the neck dimensions the same as the 9.3x65R Collath.

I assume it is an old black powder load.

Would the load be the same as the 360 BPE cartridge?

851c,
I just started working with a Husqvarna chambered in 9.3x57R/360-2 1/4", And as I recall the German load was around 1.8 -2 grams of R5 powder with around a 200-grain bullet. Axel uses VV140 to replace R5 due to a very similar burn rate. I happen to use IMR (military pull down) 4895 to replace R5, for the same reason. Of course, IAW normal handloading procedures you need to reduce the charge weight and work back up, watching for signs of problems. Older rifles may have used heavier lead bullets than those used today. The rifle will tell you what it wants as you search for a load that regulates. My rifle uses close to .370" bullet but yours would likely be around .358-9", most marked 118.35 are but you should slug the barrel. If the rifle is black powder proofed, a common black powder to smokeless conversion is 45% of the black powder charge in IMR 4198. Of course, the reduction and work back up procedure applies here also. I use original length (2.125-130") 38-55 cases, but most people use 9.3x72R cases shortened to around 2.250".
Mike
To answer your actual question, the 360-2 1/4" BPE load was 50 grains BP with either 155grain, 190 grain, or 215grain bullet. The Nitro for black load was 22grains of cordite with a 190grain bullet. The Nitro Express load was 30grains Cordite and a 300grain bullet.
Mike

Der Ami,

Thank you. I shoot 360EX and a 9.3x57R/360 (only difference is the 360EX has a thinner rim).

For the 360EX, I use 22 gr of IMR 4198 and bullets between 158 gr and 180 gr. My Lancaster likes 0.359" - 360" 158 gr cast bullets and my Henry likes 0.367" 177gr HC bullets and 180 gr HC GC bullets. My Reilly 9.3x57R has some mispires when I use thin rim brass. Buffalo Arms used to have 9.3x57R brass with a 0.060" rim but have been out of stock for over 2 years.

My DR which I now believe is a 9.3x58.5r S&S has a 0.355" bore and should shoot 0.356" HC GC bullets. I have some 180 gr HC GC bullets that I will swage to 0.356" and load with 22 gr IMR 4198 and see how it shoots. The brass was cut down 9.3x72R brass that had the neck area reduced in 8x58.5r S&S dies, annealed, and fireformed. I will seat the bullets with 360EX dies.

Hopefully the loaded ammo fits the rifle (for me, an issue), fires fine, and groups. Will check the velocity as I will be looking for 1700 fps. Is that a reasonable velocity?

I will be looking for 8x58.5r S&S brass that I can fireform into 9.3x58.5r brass. (From my web search, the 9.xX58.5r S&S brass isn't available but the 8x58.5r is sometimes available.)

851c,
I don't know what happened, I wrote an answer to your last post yesterday and it must not have been picked up. Being pretty "wordy" I wrote more, but the following is a shortened version. For the Reilly that misfires, I suggest you try 38-55 original length (2.125-130") cases. I often use them for different rifles and usually have to thin the rims but in my Husky 9.3x57R they don't need thinning. I have recently noticed that Starline has them in stock again, which means the regular suppliers should also have them. The 38-55 cases will be a little short but that will make little difference if you seat the bullet, so the cartridge has the same OAL.
I still believe your double rifle is 9x58 1/2R S&S instead of 9.3. I believe the confusion comes from the proof mark 118.35 which was often used on tighter bored 9.3x72Rs. Fireformed cases from a 9x58 1/2R S&S will show a tapered rather than shouldered case shape. You can use the long 38-55 cases in the double rifle, as well as the Reilly, but you may need to thin the rims. To use the 38-55 cases, you only need to size in 9.3x72R FL die and 8x58 1/2 die, FL if seating die won't get the mouth small enough. After fireforming, you can neck size and seat bullets in 9x57, or 35 Remington dies adjusted to the fireformed case. If the 0.359-.360" or 0.367" (not as likely) lead bullet will easily fit into the fireformed but unsized case it can be used "as is". Starline 38-55 cases (the long ones) will cost less than $1.00 ea., but 8x58 1/2R S&S cases will cost $4.00 or more ea. if you can find them. The 1700 fps is a reasonable velocity, depending on what you intend to do with the rifle. If you intend to hunt with it, you can likely speed the lighter bullet up some.
Good Luck,
Mike