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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,138 Likes: 229
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,138 Likes: 229 |
I would agree. And seeing that most of the pertinent info was stamped on the barrel flats and there was just the inspection mark and serial number on the watertable of the reciever, it makes it difficult to vet an older double in trying to prove it is all original.
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,304 Likes: 222
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,304 Likes: 222 |
Revdoc, Greener talkes of a "prominent" maker [probably Purdey] using Whitworth barrels in the 1880s. The 1885 Purdey catalog offers same, but guns in the 11,000 range from Purdey seem to have them, so probably earlier. I don't think Chris Batha is right.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,529 Likes: 355
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,529 Likes: 355 |
I have to agree with Miller and Daryl, and have been searching the various auction sites for the earliest confirmed date of manufacture with (original) Whitworth barrels.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 845
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 845 |
During My research along with Don Dallas, I am reasonably sure that after the hours spent between the pages of Purdeys Order books, my looking at "Many Many Purdey Guns & Rifles, both sides of the 'A' Ocean,and due to the Tireless Efforts of the former Holland & Holland"Wiz-Kid"Peter Blaine EsQ. Now Purdeys'Top Man'at South Audley St...and his efforts on my behalf, we came up with(99.5% sure) The Gun Number of the First Purdey tobe 'Tubed" with Sir Joe Whitworth's Fluid Pressed Steel, and the Year of Mfg. I have in the W/Shop No 10615.No 2 of the pair Delivered to Mr Hunt Jan 1st 1880.Start date on guns late 1878.Records show Built for Pigeon Shooting, 1st gun built with "The New Wide Pigeon Top Rib" I have had earlier serial numbered Purdeys,that had been returned to Purdeys with Original Damascus Tubes,and Re-Tubed with Whitworths Steel.Ever wonder what the Sr # of the Purdeys were(are) that went down on the Titanic???"So Much History, So Little Time'. cc/dt
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 845
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 845 |
Oh My....an Error... I forgot to point out that the James Purdey Pair Nos. 10614-10615 that were delivered to Mr Hunt by James Purdey, The Younger',on January 1st 1880. Were of course Barreled with The "New Whitworth Fluid Pressed Steel". We think that they are the First "Pair" Built using 'Sir Joe W' Steel. cc/dt
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
From The Gun and Its Development WW Greener 1907 Of the steels used for shot-gun barrels, the best known is Whitworth's fluid compressed steel. This is a cast steel; the ingot whilst in a liquid or a semi-liquid state is submitted to pressure, with a view to eliminating blow-holes. The top and bottom of the ingot is cut oft" and thrown aside as usual. Eminent metallurgists contend that in the process of cooling the contraction of the ingot is so great that o pressure which can be brought to act upon it by mechanical means can affect the metal—at any rate, beyond a few inches from the surface. The process is therefore by some regarded as quite superfluous. On the other hand, it is generally allowed that the Whitworth steel is of excellent quality, and it has been used for barrels for so many years that its suitability for that purpose may be taken as fully proven.
The Whitworth steel is to be ordinarily distinguished from other steels by its brand, and by that alone. This mark is a " wheatsheaf," and London gun-makers who have sold guns with these barrels for many years now have their barrels with this registered trade mark stamped on the under side and the ordinary lettering " Whitworth's steel," etc., on the top of the barrel or the top rib. Whitworth steel is higher in carbon than many steels used for gun barrels, but it is sufficiently ductile to allow of drilling.
Steel made by the Siemens-Martin process has been used successfully for shotgun barrels as well as rifles. So, too, tubes of basic open hearth steel, made from hematite pig and scrap, and carburized by Darby's filtration process, were tested at the Birmingham Proof House in the trials already referred to and obtained a high figure of merit
Steel barrels may be made by drilling them from the ordinary rolled bar; they may be drawn by rolling out pierced blanks; they may even be rolled hollow by the Mannesmann process, or they may be forged, then drilled. Pete
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 11
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,164 Likes: 11 |
The earliest shotgun that I have seen with steel barrels was a Thomas Horsley hammer gun #1968, circa 1872. This gun was unusual because the barrels were engraved," steel"! I have seen one other early gun by this maker that also had steel barrels. By 1888 steel barrels were in common use. A debate over the strength of steel vs; damascus, pompted the Birmingham Proof House to carry out comparison tests of steel vs, damascus. The best performing barrels in this test were those made from English machined forged laminated steel in three rods.These barrels out performed Whitworth steel.Details of these extensive test can be found in the book Experts on Guns & Shooting by Teasedale-Buckell.
Roy Hebbes
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,529 Likes: 355
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,529 Likes: 355 |
The Birmingham Proof House report as published in The Field is reproduced in Double Gun Classicshttp://www.doublegunclassics.com/alt/DGCJanFeb06.pdfScroll down to p. 26
Last edited by revdocdrew; 09/09/07 08:52 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527 |
Thank you Roy and Others for shedding more more on all steel barrels made basically the same as damascus-by forging. I became interested is this process after reading an old catalogue on Belmont (Bonehill) guns. Barrels were avaiable in various damascus and "3 Bell Steel". In my research, steel (not molten) went through 3 furnaces to make it more "pliable", I guess annealing in 3 steps would be a good decription. Since it wasn't "poured" I suspected that strips had to be forged together and you've confirmed that idea. Only a suspicion but I think I have a set of all steel forged barrels by Bonehill-I guess trying to get a damascus pattern with out succeeding would give a good indication, looked at close it looks like very fine twist. Any marks I could look for, the barrels have a 3 on them but no "steel" mark? --- John Can.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
Here are the test results: Pete
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