doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com winchester 23 and steel shot

I just got a winchester 23 Heavy Duck. The chokes have been opened to .720 and .725. I would think that since it was made in japan and 1984 when steel was fairly common to shoot in certain areas it will work fine. Especially since it has such open chokes. I dont intend to shoot only numbered size steel not big stuff like BB or bigger(mainly #4). What are your opinions and experiences?

thanks
duckaholic

I actually have the same question in the same gun. I've avoided it by shooting bismuth so far, I have a bunch of steel from earlier years in stock. I've never opened the chokes, they're marked full & full. They don't act like a very tight full with lead.

I would not shoot steel especially older steel in that gun...Geo

So what do we actually know (and confirming these dates was a challenge)?
Rumors about the steel mandate for waterfowl picked up about 1976.
The Olin-Kodensha Winchester Model 23 was introduced in 1978.
During the 79'- 80'waterfowl season, some steel shot zones were established.
500 Heavy Duck models were manufactured in 1984.
More lead bans were put in place for the 87'-88' season.
It is reported that the Kodensha barrels are chrome lined.
The Model 23 IS marked "Winchester Proof Steel".
AFAIK Winchester never claimed the Model 23 was "steel shot compatible" in 1984 or later.

IF the barrels are indeed 4140 WPS and chrome lined there would be little difference from "modern" 4140 steel shot compatible barrels, the use of which would of course require the appropriate choke.

I believe however there would be legitimate concern regarding rib separation and head of the stock splitting with 3" 1 1/4 oz. at 1450 fps steel loads. Remington Nitro Steel has a 2 3/4" 1 1/8 oz. 4s at 1390 fps
https://www.remington.com/ammunition/shotshell/waterfowl-loads/nitro-steel-high-velocity

Bill: what are those "earlier years"? At some point the steel load wads were manufactured thicker and tougher, but I don't know when.

What exactly would make it steel compatible or not?? Are you saying that the steel in the barrels cannot handle steel shot?? I just dont get this. So many on this board have the standard answer regarding any question about shooting steel shot in any particular gun, and that answer usually is "I would not shoot steel in my ..........(fill in the blank). It seems to me that this is simply the easiest answer to give and is based on perhaps no real evidence. I do know that some of the "old' steel shot was not very waterproof and often turned to solid steel slugs after a while. But newer shells with plastic shot cups, etc, should be safe in any gun that has been properly taken care of and has no existing damage to the barrels, at least any made after WW II. So, hit me with some definitive answers other than what might amount to hearsay.

Having looked in the ammo cave it appears I must got rid of the steel duck and goose shells from the eighties. I have a couple of boxes of 1 oz. Fiocchi #7's from the early ninties from when I was shooting along the Rio Grand River. For me steel in the HD Model 23 is an academic question as I don't shoot much waterfowl anymore and I can use bismuth or the other stuff if I put in for cranes.

Steel does not deform and thus can scratch or gouge barrels, but more importantly, it can have difficulty negotiating the throat (forcing cone) and the chokes and may stretch them, especially the chokes. This is a bigger problem with tighter chokes and bigger shot sizes. You can bell a barrel in some cases.

Also, to make up for less density there is a desire to go faster and have higher pressures.

Your mileage may vary, but I listen to companies like Briley when they describe that is and is not compatible with their choke tubes.

If you happen to own a Fabbri shotgun, you allegedly can shoot steel shot through a full choked barrel. Apparently, their barrels are made of some sort of aeronautical grade stainless steel which is 80-90% stronger than steel used in lesser guns. Not too sure why a guy would want to shoot steel through a full choked Fabbri shotgun, but I guess you can, and can with immunity.

Not all of �em:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=486275&page=4

I have no dog in this fight. I have a gun or three I can shoot steel in, and a few I can shoot steel in BECAUSE I WILL NOT LIVE TO SEE THE RESULTS.

None of them, are Fabbris, by the way.

Got bismuth, got heavi-shot, got no worries at his point in the ball game.

Best,
Ted

My advice above was based on the tighter than modified chokes in the Winchester in question. In addition, my concern about older steel shells is the shot collar used. New ones have collars which provide protection to barrels from steel gouging. My concern is also primarily with duck/goose size shot. Smaller shot, say 7 1/2 has less reported tendency to bridge and blow out your choke...Geo

I was responding to BorderBill's post.