doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com B & P Upland Game .410 loads

SGJ, Why do you call B&P �designer� shotgun shells, something the world does not need? Like Joe Biden says, �come on man�. B&P are dang fine shells. Are you a competition shooter? What class are you in? Please qualify your statement by letting us know this information and where this statement is coming from.

The product lines from the Beretta group are pretty diverse.

I have no idea what that market might be like if the companies were still independent. It's hard to predict 'what if' scenarios.

It's difficult for me to believe prices are less to the consumer than they would have been otherwise. The world just doesn't work like that.

The Crow Shooting Supply acquistion of Gamaliel has not been good for the consumer, nor has the sale of Cabela's to the bilionaire. Gander Mountain is a travel trailer lot now.

I'm looking at this from the standpoint of a consumer not a stockholder.

When flags fall, we lose.

B&P shells obviously don't appeal to me buzz.

They are gimmicky. 'A revolutionary design that reduces recoil'.

The whole sales schtick about that supposed superior shotshell system is PT Barnum worthy.

I stick with 'designer shell'.

If you like them, buy them. I hope they are still available so I can laugh at them.

Your other questions are not relavant.

.....more hot air from our resident expert, Shotgun Jones. Those questions regarding your qualifications are absolutely relevant my friend. If you are a national champion or even in one of the higher classes, and have shot a lot of B & P shells, then I�d say your opinion on B and P might be relevant, otherwise likely worthless, more hot air and no expertise. Premium shells are superior to promotional loads and B and P are premium shells. They are more expensive than promos and you get what you pay for. I�ve read other of your posts where you tout the cheap promotional loads. Go ahead and shoot the cheap stuff. For me, I will stick with quality and shoot premium shotgun shells like B&P, AA, Remington STS, premium Clever, and premium Fiocchi, et.al. In fact, and along this line, the NSCA National championship is going on in Texas now, and I�d bet a million dollars that the winner is shooting a premium shell, and not cheap promotional loads like those you prefer. ....and, as a matter of fact, several world championship have been won using B and P shotgun shells, so go figure....and laugh at that . Also, whether the B & P recoil reduction Gordon hull system works or not is another matter. They do seem to be soft shooting shells in my opinion but perceived recoil and even actual recoil is a difficult thing to quantify. I don�t know of any tests/studies that can prove or disprove B and P claims on their system. Do you?

It must work buzz, after all it's patented. So is the Edison machine.

Actual recoil isn't difficult at all to quantify, just run the formula.

Perceived recoil is just that. All in your head.

Advertising works on the principle of the human predisposition to believe.

If you think this marvelous product works, then by all means shell out the extra dough and use it. I hope the new corporate structure is successful and the choices in the marketplace continue without a price increase but that's not how I bet.

You still haven't answered my question about what you think should be done to change the system so that there can't be mergers or buyouts. Think the government should be involved? "C'mon man", just say so if you believe it.

Oh yeah, your statement that you used to dodge answering my question about the Beretta acquisitions of all those companies was "the product lines from Beretta are pretty diverse". What's the point of that? The product lines from Fiocchi are pretty diverse, too.

You've got a negative attitude about this whole principle, but you've got no answers.

SRH

I hope the 16 gauge B&P F2's survive. Excellent game loads.

He hasn�t answered me either in terms of his qualifications to render expert opinion Stan. Also, he�s offered no evidence the Gordon system is a �gimmick�. He just states it is as though it�s fact, and in a fashion reminiscent of Moses carving out the Ten Commandments in stone. I bet I�d get a good laugh watching him blow holes in the sky with his favored cheap promotional loads, and that�s my educated opinion on our resident expert, Mr Shotgun Jones of Michigan.

I shoot the B&P F2 Classic in 16 gauge. 1 oz of #8s at 1300 FPS with low recoil. It�s a fantastic round. It will take Fiocchi a little while to get the distribution chains up and running. Until then, I really need to find something else.

What might be considered a 'premium' shell?

Function might be considered. Shells that have rims that cause headspace related failures to fire and failures to extract as reported by Stan might be not actually be 'premium shells'.

The following chart has been going around for years:

https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/whe...-shells.476649/

How is a shell with 3% Sb content a premium shell?

What about steel heads? Can a steel head shell be a 'premium shell'?

If you think back, some of the first cut rate modern era shells that saw common use in the US were the Activ and the Fiocchi. Fiocchi was at one time an inexpensive shell. They haven't changed them, but it's now in the 'premium' category? What is now premium is the price. Activ which was starting to get quite a following as a target shell and delivered good reloading life was snapped up by Federal Cartridge in one of those beneficial merger deals. Acitv as a brand is long gone of course because Federal needed the production capacity for stuff the volume shooters buy and to protect their own 'premium' line from competition from (drum roll) themselves.

The only real 'premium' target shell left is the STS. It constantly wins Mr. Winston's tests. Guess who owns Remington Ammunition now? That would be Vista Outdoor aka Federal Cartridge. Does anybody believe this will be good for the consumer?

Stan is demanding for some reason that I opine an 'answer' for these competition squashing business deals as if I'm some kind of anti-trust regulator or politician. How am I accountable to Stan or anybody else for 'answers' to such rhetorical questions?

My sole point here is that fewer vendors in the marketplace leads to higher prices for the consumer and fewer choices as the greedy corporate bastards put themselves first and their customers second.

My favored shell by the way buzz is a handload in an STS case with West Coast or Lawrence shot. That's a 'premium' shell for the price of a promo load. I do burn lots of promo loads because they perform adequately for the vast majority of the shooting I do. I'm limited by economics to only about 8,000 targets a year and see no point in paying entry fees to registered shoots to feed my ego and trophy case. I got over that long ago. I'd rather shoot lots of affordable targets than a few expensive ones. As far as my skill level, I do OK. My strong suit is a reasonable skill level with a variety of guns and configurations. If I had to shoot the same gun every week, I'd just give this up.

I own no custom guns or stocks but constantly strive to shoot what I do choose to own well enough to please myself which when you get to a certain point in life becomes the only worthwhile goal.

What you choose to shoot is your business and I don't really care. I hope the shells you prefer and demand can still be obtained in the future.