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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2013
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Interesting French O/U 16 gauge. Of additional note, the receiver indicates the shotgun was made in St. Etienne, however it is also inscribed with "Avec Bascule importe d'Allegmangne" indicating that the gun's receiver was imported from Germany. No maker's mark are indicated on the gun from what I can see. Anyone have any ideas regarding the identity crisis that this 16 is having, or any other information? https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101540609
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Joined: Feb 2016
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
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Here were my observations via PM. " Acier Comprime" - compressed steel....means nothing an advertisement " COA Canons" - this will be the barrel maker. I cannot identify "COA" as yet (if the letters are correct - they are stylized). I thought it might be a mark for Saint-Etienne barrel maker (Cannoniere) Chavot Armuriere - founded in 1924 by Jean Chavot - fourth generation still at it. I might write to try to confirm or will continue to search the internet. " Choke" (word indistinct)" with " SMR" in the semi-circle. Usually the word "choke" is associated with "rectifie" which means nothing. The initials though will mean something. I'll search more. Need to confirm they are "SMR". There is an inscription " Medaille d'or" (Gold Medal) on the barrel...obviously a prize won by the barrel maker at some world's fair. We should be able to turn this up. The gun is advertised as having 2 3/4" chambers. If so they are lengthened. They originally are 65mm (2 1/2"). Chamber length in MM so after June 1912. "17.4" = `16 bore Proofed for PT powder (smokeless nitro - post 1900). It is double proofed in Saint-Etienne. "Fusil Fabrique a Saint-Etienne" - Gun made in Saint-Etienne "Avec Bascule importe d'Allegmangne" - With Action imported from Germany Can't help with the cocking rods unfortunately...not familiar enough with O/U. Again Raimey or Ted or wild cattle or Larry might recognize something. It's got that little half pistol grip stock which is Saint-Etienne. The butt plate is very French. The interesting thing for me is " Allemangne". It's not "Ouest Allemangne" (West Germany) or FRG (created in 1949)...it's just "Germany." so Post 1991? It looks a lot older than that. It may be just after WWII...and occupied Germany was still just "Germany." There was a Lyon regional country-side pursuits fair in 1949. Wonder if the Gold Medal came from there? Or it could be even earlier....1930's?
Last edited by Argo44; 11/03/20 09:51 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Feb 2016
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,289 Likes: 366 |
I was trying to understand when the first French O/U (superposé) was made. The Verney Caron site claims the first French mass produced O/U was the V-C "Sagittaire" which came out in the mid-1960's.
Could this gun could be an order from the 1930's, before France made O/U guns? Yet, the barrels were still made in France - not an easy thing to do. Confusing.
A la Libération, elle se retrouve confrontée à la concurrence déloyale des arsenaux de l'Etat, car le ministre Charles Tillon décide que les manufactures de Tulle, Châtellerault et Saint-Etienne doivent fabriquer des fusils de chasse. « En 1885, mon arrière-grand-père avait plaidé pour pouvoir redémarrer la fabrication de pièces d'armes militaires interdite par Napoléon III, ce qui a permis aux Belges et aux Anglais de prendre une avance considérable sur notre industrie nationale de l'armement », commente l'actuel président. L'accord passé en 1954 avec Franchi permet à son entreprise de fabriquer sous licence un fusil de chasse semi-automatique très léger conçu par l'armurier italien et lui donne sa dimension industrielle.
Douze ans plus tard, c'est le lancement du Sagittaire, produit emblématique de Verney-Carron, premier fusil superposé français fabriqué en grande série, qui s'octroie très vite une place de leader sur le marché.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,985 Likes: 894 |
When I get asked about a French O/U, it usually leads to just a few brands of guns, several versions of the Verney Carron Sagittaire, a Picard Fayolle Dactu , or a Petrek.
No clue on this one. The German connection is not something I’ve seen before.
I would lean more toward pre WWII, with the double proof. The short chambers on an O/U give me that thought as well.
I can’t add much more than that.
Best, Ted
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Joined: Feb 2016
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,289 Likes: 366 |
I've done some looking and I must say the curiosity quotient is pegging. I think this barrel maker mark will be key. I sent an email to Chavot. I'll try to post on a French site again.
Last edited by Argo44; 11/03/20 11:29 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,464 Likes: 133 |
While it might be that Verney-Carron made the first truly mass produced OU's in France, the Petriks were made during the between the wars period.
The receiver is interesting. While the exterior looks something like a Merkel, the interior photos verify that it's a totally different bolting system. Nothing like the Kersten.
Gene, my memory isn't 100% on this, but digging way back, I seem to recall that "choke" on a barrel (minus rectifie) indicated full choke.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,985 Likes: 894 |
Larry, Beginning around the year 2000, the Bruchet’s built new Petrks. They had repaired, rebarreled, and restocked them for many years prior. Toward the end of production, they were building an O/U that was advertised as a “Blitz” action gun. I only saw pictures, but, it was nowhere near as svelte as a Petrik. http://www.fusildarne.com/models-gun-rifle-juxtaposed-express?model=4-fusil-superposeBest, Ted
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,464 Likes: 133
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,464 Likes: 133 |
Thanks, Ted. I didn't realize that. I have a Darne brochure from a gun shop in Rouen, which I must have picked up in 1977 when I was there with a group of American college students. In addition to the traditional Darne sxs, the brochure shows 3 different OU models which, from the brochure, Darne claims to be making. Other than that very typical small round knob French grip, they look to be pretty much standard top break OU's. And that's how the brochure describes them. I don't recall actually seeing any of those Darne OU's in the shop in question. But I was probably focused on the sxs, and may have missed them.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,122 Likes: 228 |
I am still diggin' but does anyone remember that odd Krieghoff O/U(odd bird0 that was for-sale some years back? I have perused thru what I can find of Emil Flues and for the life of me I cannot find an example that has those teats / protrusions on the standing breech.
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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