doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Pressure question, Kent TM

I think that any pressure quote without a statement of the measurement and calculation methods used to derive the answer is only half an answer, as in order get there, a user has to assume stuff. Did they use a SAAMI standard pressure gun set up? Piezo crushers? How many trials? How many samples per trial?

The numbers must actually represent the central tendency of a range of values... unless they are just the products of calculation, as Bosands suggests. If the pressure data is merely calculated, then they should fess up. I can calculate a curve based on three or 4 data points, and then faired and have a reasonable approximation, but its not the same as a pressure reading.

Regards

GKT

It's surprising to me that many of our members will spend thousands on an individual gun, yet want to spend next to nothing on ensuring their personal safety when it comes to pressure data for a load in a vintage gun.

I really encourage either sending a sample of the lot to Armbrust at $5/shot or buying a Pressure Trace or both. The other option is following a loading manual. It's your hands, eyes and face that are literally right on the gun. There are enough unknowns in shooting a vintage gun. Actual pressure data is very comforting.

Can someone supply contact info on Mr. Armbrust please? Besides these Kent shells, I have a few other loads I would like tested.

As to Kent's claim of pressures I find it difficult to believe in todays world a large company such as Kent would put out info that was not correct. If an incident were to occur and it was found that their product produced significantly higher pressures then THEY STATE, I would think they would then be in a bit of trouble.

When I asked the person on the phone, he asked me what product number I needed info on. He then looked it up. This means they have pressure info on each product they sell. It is written somewhere where the employee could look it up. I just can't see them leaving themselves liable by stating a certain pressure and it not be legit. I could be wrong.

For those that replied stating they did not believe these numbers because some one else tested them and found much higher pressures, it seems you know some numbers then, so please post the results. It appears that more people than just me care about this topic, so if you have info on it, post it please.

Jason:

Email teacher Martin C. Sands(Marty) at martosands@yahoo.com. He does the legwork and testing for Tom Armbrust at Ballistic Research as a hobby. Tell him you received the contact info from me.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Another source may be Wallace Labisky from DAK-TECH Ballistics (1324 Fourth Avenue SE, Aberdeen, SD 57401, phone 605-225-7906)

I found Mr. Labisky's name referenced in Tom Armbrusts blog http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

Tom Armbrust, Ballistic Research
1108 W May Avenue
McHenry, IL 60050-8918
815-385-0037

"teacher" I like that, Marty is my brother, and has become very involved with helping tom. I don't get involved or care about numbers or how things are done. I have enough other hunting related interests that take up time. But I do like shooting these old guns, so I just have them tell me what I should or shouldn't shoot. If I recall correctly Kent used a process of pressure testing that used some kind of calculations rather than an actual pressure gun. I do not remember the pressure Tom got but some where well over SAMMI specs.

Chuck, yes Wallace was involved with a lot of this stuff, unfortunately he passed away this summer.

bosands71:

I was privileged to hear a few waterfowl exploits, of the Brothers Sands, this past weekend. I would just like to watch the 8 and 10 bores in action on upland. I believe that I understood him to say that he had an attorney to inquire as to the use of the 8 bore. Teacher, yes. Seeing my wife is a teacher, I have much respect for teachers and for a teacher who has a rifled 8 bore double.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jason,

I have shot Kent Tungsten in the duck marsh through my Fox Sterlingworth and more recently (3 seasons) an L.C. Smith Grade 2 shipped in 1902 with fluid steel barrels and a regular frame.

We shoot alot of ammo and a few ducks. First, Tungsten Matrix knocks the stuffin' out of em, they are most often dead on the water. It is a very noticeable difference from Bismuth.

Second, I have not had any mechanical problems with either gun in the way of shooting loose, etc. These guns were proof tested somewhere around 15,000psi, and I believe that 10,000 psi is not harmful to Classic American Doubles with nitro proofed steel and good tight actions. Maybe someone out there can tell us what pressures were developed when shooting a 1 1/2oz magnum duck load of 1940 Winchester Super-X shells.

I would also be interested to know if someone has data on "magnum" loads from the late 1920's. Guys were shooting heavy payloads of lead shot back then as well, during the same time period most of these guns were sold. My bet is that the heavy loads of the 1920's developed slightly over 10,000psi.

If the guns were designed and tested to shoot that type of load then, considering a shotgun in good working order, it should be of no harm now.

That said, RST Shot Shells now loads a Tungsten based non-toxic at lower pressures, and I am going to try them. As much as I believe the old guns can take it, I know it is less stressful on gun AND SHOOTER to shoot lower pressure shells if available.

Also, a company called NICE SHOT is selling the same Tungsten based non-toxic shot to the public in 2.2 Kilo bags for those that load their own. LOOK AT IMR POWDER'S LOADING TABLES FOR 12 GA. 1 1/4OZ LOADS. There are quite a few that leave the barrel at around 1300fps and are under 8000psi. That is a nice duck load.

NICE SHOT is expensive, but IMR has some loads that are under 7200psi and leave the barrel at over 1200fps. This allows guns in lesser condition to be shot at waterfowl, and I have tried this shot on early season geese and it was potent indeed. Go to niceshotinc.com for more info.

good luck.