doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Emil Flues

The last time I saw that picture was 25 years ago...the only thing I remember was errors in the text, but I can't remember what...could you post that photo and text please, or email it to me...careful for what you wish for...because every 3 or 4 years someone is selling one of the detatchable rib models...

It's interesting to note that Emil was into all kinds of guns as a young journeyman out west, but he returned to Michigan and formed a partnership with Robert Wrege on Water street in Bay City....he then focused on strictly sporting guns and tried to forget the shootin' irons he once repaired out west, that were used for shooting Indians. Emil was an advocate for the plight of the American Indians, and certainly had a sense of responsibility for the guns he was producing

Jack it looks like we are only going to heAr what he wants us to hear...
I'm trying to envision what gun maker Ithaca put to their knees and with what gun ?

Hey jOe,
Why don't you add something once in a while and
I do not mean hot & empty air. I think we all would perfer your silence.
Jeff G.

Sorry for the glare and large size. From Frank F Conley's The American Single Barrel Trap Gun















Its interesting that the barrels have T shaped lugs like the early Baker in the pic below.


Ross

Ithaca bought some gun makers ie Lefever Arms,Syracuse Arms,Union Firearms,Wilkes Barre Gun Co. This is according to Conley's book. I dont have Walt's book yet, Ill try to get it ordered soon.
Ithaca also built doubles into the late 1940's and the SBT into the 1980s. Ithaca was in operation longer than any of the other high quality American double gun makers. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is Remington.

I still believe that Ithaca's 'Flues' of all the models Ithaca produced was the best fitted and engraved, IMHO even better than the Lewis. However, you cannot overlook the fact that besides its looks the Flues had that wicked lock time!! Did that however transfer to wins on the trap field and if that's the case was that the reason for its huge profitability over all other designs????
All the best

Reb87,treblig1958
Thank you...thank you...that sbt is definitely the handwork of Emil Flues...even the engraving is Flues done...I wish it was mine to own and shoot...
The lock time, though a good selling point, had relatively little to do with the tremendous volume of sales and production numbers. The reason this model was so sucessful was because the design was far less expensive to machine and produce overall.
I will try to answer this question, but there will be members who just won't like the simplicity of the answer...
You see, Emil didn't have a milling machine...or an electric drill press...or a lathe...When he needed a receiver,
say a boxlock, inletted for the internals (springs,locks,and levers), he used hammer and chisels to inlet the steel...along with a crank drill, breast drill, and files...as you might imagine, this was a VERY labor intensive process, and it gave you not only time to think, it almost forces you to take the shortest route between start and finish. This handmade approach to making doubles led him to the very least amount of complex steel inletting and the fewest number of handmade parts in order to get the job done. This led to a relatively simple means of cocking the gun by breaking the action. He patented the design in 1895, while once again living in Michigan....the patent number is 546,516, and there's damn good reason it didn't appear in Snyders book...Emil went on refining and perfecting the shortcuts in machine work for patent 546516 for another 10 years. These shortcuts were employed in his latest guns, but were not added in a subsequent patent. Sometime around 1905 he began negotiations to sell this refined version 546516 to Ithaca Gun Co. It was the refinements that interested IGC more than the patent itself. It seems that an absolute minimum of required machine steps coupled with a minimal of internal parts to be machined, augers well for mass production techniques and corporate investors as well.
This design, coupled with Ithaca's already existing mass production assembly line, and the fact that Ithaca was in a "do or die" situation with being overly invested in R&D and the re-tooling costs associated with all the recent transitions from the Crass/Minier/Lewis models, led to the the lightest, rightist, fastest low cost double being produced in America. Within a few short years, Ithaca had captured so much market share that the big boys were forced to respond. Parker responded with the Trojan...LC Smith responded with the Fulton...Fox with the Sterlingworth, and Remington just threw in the towel ending their SxS production line in favor of the more modern repeaters of the day...more later

Reb87,
The little production made 20ga that I have pictured at the beginning of this thread doesn't have those extra t shaped lugs...but I also have a his personal gun, another twenty, fully engraved in the very same fashion, and it does have the t shaped lugs including several other strange experimental features...what do you suppose the reason for those lugs was? also, I have Baker #38, and it too has those lugs

Conley's text is so far out of the ball park, it pains me to read it...Of course that gun was made in Buffalo c1923 and up to 1930, and well after his 1908-09 falling out with Ithaca...the patent for that gun is 1450496...the reason for that pierced head screw on the trigger, is so you could adjust the LOP by 3/4 - 1" in either direction...this feature was recently introduced by Beretta (I think)

I doubt Ithaca gun company or Emil Flues had anything to do with companies like Parker, L.C.Smith or Fox going to their "knees".
I would say it was a combination of economy and the comimg of the succesful repeating shotguns.

What I see is....Ithaca might've been down on one "knee" when the other American makers stopped production of fine SxS's...Ithaca didn't stop they just started making lower quality SxS's.