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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 144 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 144 Likes: 3 |
Belay my comment about this gun not being Nitro Proofed. In my haste and in my focus on the Belgian proof marks on the action and barrels flats I did not initially notice the German Nitro Proof markings on the lower section of the barrel and also on the action flats before I posted above.
Those are lame excuses for my inattentiveness, but I had to make up something.
Raimey will likely be along soon to post some pics I sent him, and offer more detail on the proof marks and other cryptic markings. What a font of expertise. Thank you, Ellenbr!
Vic
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228 |
Passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility in August 1910. Kuntze ordered it @ a minimum of <<in the white<< from the mechanics in Liège. He added his initials & a serial number plus some other effort then sent the longarm to the Z-M proof facility to Nitro Proof as noted above. Very unique toplever that looks to mate w/ the top tang safety? Serbus, Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228 |
Nr. 3352 w/ EK(E. Kuntze) Nr. 94 Wears the Perron, so it was brought to a state of completion in Liège. Acier Cockerill Liege - ACL in a circle(Many Thanks Dr. Hause w/ his Belgian Ocular) HD as Henri Devillers(one solution?) >>Nitro, N Surmounted by a Crown, German Imperial Eagle<< It appears that E. Kuntze applied some effort after sourcing the Anson & Deeley Body Action platform from the talented mechanics in Liège and then either he or the client wanted to be on the forefront of technology and the new German proof rules, so in Summer of 1910 E. Kuntze submitted the longarm for >>Nitro<< proof(coupled w/ the N surmounted by a Crown on the water-table) and E. Kuntze was pressing the envelope as the new proof rules were't in-force till 1911. Serbus, Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228 |
The toplever & top tang safety again for those following along. Serbus, Raimey rse
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Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 632 Likes: 93
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 632 Likes: 93 |
Safety Just looks way close to top lever I would imagine it’s of the automatic type?
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228 |
True, it could be an optical illusion?
Serbus,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 144 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 144 Likes: 3 |
Hi Raimey:
Thank you for all the information. It is a conventionally place top safety; optical illusion, indeed.
The barrels are essentially untouched, remaining true to their proof mark specs. It is a very well constructed gun, and by its condition was well cared for before and after its voyage to America, presumably accompanying a homebound G.I.
Very interesting about the Nitro proof of 1910/11.
How common was it for German makers/retailers to use Liege barreled actions with Liege proof marks?
And am I correct in guessing that E. Kuntze is another of many German gunmakers whose history has vanished?
Thanks once again.
Vic
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228 |
Well, when the German firearms merchant wanted to really increase his profit margin, he would order from the talented mechanics in Liège, but most of the time he would ask that the marks be hidden or worn so that the end user couldn't discern if the firearms merchant of record actually made it or not. Too, reciprocity played a large part on whether the Belgians marks were present or not. But all run of the mill barrels of German steel were sourced as rough bored tubes from Liège. Actually the German steel makers granted a license to Belgian steel makers in the area to make bar stock from a German steel recipe. Even Sauer sought trademark protection in Belgium. But almost always you wouldn't find a German firearms merchant to order a Belgian platform with Belgian inland steel. That is the reason that E. Kuntze had the Cockrell Steel noted as Stahl. Just part of the overall grand deception to increase the Benjamins.
Yeah, the ledger is probably somewhere unless it was donated on a paper drive or similar? If it survived, with Leipzig being behind the iron curtain, the mentality is the >>what's in it for me<< mode.
Serbus,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228 |
By the way, that rules change for the proof facility of Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis was on September 1st, 1911 whilst the Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis rules were adopted by Suhl in April of 1912 and I have no idea why the date variance.
Serbus,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,124 Likes: 228 |
Thanks to Wolfgang's mining efforts, indeed Erich Kuntze was a Büchsenmacher and it appears there is info in the Archives in Dresden(Sächsisches Staatsarchiv) I believe??
Serbus,
Raimey rse
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