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Forums10
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Post deleted by Robert Chambers
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The article by Uncle Bob says this about the "stub" twist. I guess he, at least, thought this.
"The stub and twist barrels were made from stubs of horseshoe nails brought in by the country blacksmiths, hence the name "stub" in connection with "twist", which later word refered to the grain of the barrel which twisted around in a spiral form from the breech to the muzzle."
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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So is this the stub twist being talked about? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=83569015I have found it confusing as this "horse shoe nail" business keeps getting brought up in the literature. I should add that I have rarely seen the Belgians refer to it. Mostly the English and American literature. To a lesser extent the Germans, but not from the period literature, mainly modern recreators. As I understand it, and I am very open to correction here... Horse shoe nails would have been equilavent to soft tool steel today, ie, very low carbon content. Horse shoe nails would have been melted down, so any supposed effect of beating against coble stones would be negated. I seems to me that horse shoe nails were merely a source of cheap low carbon iron. Much the same to casting lead bullets from wheel weights is done today. The billet would still have to arranged in the same way no matter the source of the metal. All the steps of forge welding, twisting etc would not be altered. Even the final etching process would not have changed. Later the Belgians complained when coke was used to smelt instead of charcoal. But that was because it introduced silicon impurities to the product making it some what less malleable. Still after this, they went on to achieve an even higher level of technical expertise in the production of their damascus, embedding names directly into the patterns. They simply could not have had enough horses in Belgian to keep producing tons of barrels year after year. So, again, why this talk of Horse shoe nails? Pete
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I've saw pictures of the "names" in the Damascus patterns and recall a while back there was talk of a Damascus coating or outer layer on the barrels. When we see names in Damascus could it be just an outer coating or layer rather than through and through the barrel ?
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The 'Terell' certainly appears to be within the scroll Greener discussed barrels marketed as high grade damascus but with a thin outer pattern welded shell encasing poor quality iron.
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Junior Member
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Junior Member
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Reb887, Your Parker Bros hammer gun #2288 is very interesting ... Please give me a call at: 602-439-2118 any day after 12 NOON Mountain Time ... THANKS ! Jim Hucaba Phoenix, Arizona Phone: 602-439-2118 Email: JimKucaba@aol;com
Jim Kucaba Phoenix, AriZOOna
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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William Greener in his book "The Gun 1834" described the method of making both Stub Twist & Stub Damascus using a mixture of horseshoe nail "Stubs" & chopped coach springs. The horse nails were high grade Wrought Iron. He lamented the fact that horse nail suppliers were beginning to use "Cast" nails which were worthless for use in gun bbls & feared good quality stubs would very soon be unavailable for bbl making. These stubs were according to him those "Pulled" from the horses hooves in re-shoeing. They were not melted down but were cleaned & tumbled & mixed with the coach springs (Steel) chopped into similar size pieces. They were placed in a container & heated to a welding heat, at which time an iron rod was dipped into the mix & a "Gob" brought out as they would stick to the rod & then hammered into a strip. The finished product showed the spiral wrap of "Plain Twist" but not the continious strips, rather a series of short pieces joined in a spiral direction. Stub Damascus used the same iron a Stub Twist, but was twisted in the bar before wrapping. The Parker marked Stub Twist looks like neither. Obviously they used a different terminology than did the early English Makers. Those bbls marked "London Twist" have an appearance very similar, but not necessarily exact, to Stub Twist as pictured in W Greener's book. Incidently in the "Machinist Trade" low carbon steel is not considered "Tool Steel". Tool Steel is used as a term for steels useful for "Making Tools" which virtually always requires a High Carbon Steel. High Speed Tool Steels are steels with other allowing ingredients which allows the tool to maintain hardness at a higher temp than will just high carbon steel, even though it may be as hard, & possibly capable of taking a "keener edge".
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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2-piper's description is exactly what I read in "The Gun 1834". Also, in a previous post on "Damascus Explained" a poster noted that horsenail "stubs" and horseshoes were added in Syria or Damascus. The old definitions of "steel" & "iron" seem to change or be used very loosely.
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Miller, good stuff. Looks like stubs in England were the same stubs Bob Edwards refered to.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Post deleted by Robert Chambers
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