doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Non-corrosive shotgun primer introduction

Are you OK keith? Do you really think my emotions can be manipulated by you? Does that make you feel powerful in some way? Help you somehow feel better about yourself?
Threads I start are my choice, about something I find interesting. And require some research, which I happen to enjoy.

Looking forward to an image of one of your vintage Lefevers with a "mirror bore".

Interesting thread. I wonder, in some instances, if using a leather covered spring steel handguard would afford some protection for your hand and/or fingers in the event of a split burst barrel? I did purchase a leather spring steel handguard a few years back from CSMC, but have never used it. I typically just use leather gloves for hunting and shooting.
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TC

Keith it was a fairly common practice to lap,hone bore of English guns so we get a lot of shiney out of proof guns I think with used gun dealers honed bores are a possibility. And I have looked at a few

Tim: that's what I did with my 1906 L.C. Smith 16g No. 0E with “Good Two Rod” Damascus, which measured .016”, 14” from the breech.
BUT prior to being gifted to me and measured, it had survived 250 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. Polywad Spred-R shells, 100 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. at 1145 fps. (about 8000 psi) loads, and 2 cases (500 shells) of 2 1/2” RST 3/4 oz. at 1100 fps (4,600 psi per RST).



The spring steel and leather handguard fit right over the thin spot. I put cases of 3/4 oz. handloads through the gun.

You know mc, I am quite aware that many English guns were regularly serviced, refinished, refreshed, and some even had the bores honed to remove pits. I also know that excessive honing could take an English gun out of proof. We have discussed that fact here hundreds of times. I am also aware that the same thing has been done here in the U.S. to a lesser degree, and I never once claimed that vintage guns with shiny bores may have never been honed. I have old gunsmithing books where the authors describe the process, but none of those old time gunsmiths tell us that shotgun barrel honing constituted a large portion of their business. I know there are operations like Briley's who do barrel honing to this day. But the vast majority of vintage shotguns have never seen a hone since they were built.

What I dispute is the opinion the Preacher stated in this Thread, and several days ago in the "Boyd and Tyler 16 ga." Thread:


I have stated several times that vintage double bores without pitting could indeed mean they were honed. But it is more likely that a vintage gun without pitted bores was simply cleaned and oiled and properly maintained. The Preacher also seems to think that a vintage gun with shiny bores that has not been honed either indicates it is a closet queen, or it was owned by someone with OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder), and they must have engaged in a mentally ill level of obsessive bore cleaning.

Guns are like tools. Guys who abuse and neglect them can expect them to become corroded, rusty, pitted etc. Guys who clean and lubricate them, and take good care of them, can expect them to look and work good, and pass them down to their grandsons in nice condition. It is not at all hard to keep a clean smooth bore in a nice shiny state.

The Preacher's response to my posts was predictable. He did not effectively refute any statement or fact I submitted. Instead, he tried to say this is about me wishing to manipulate his emotions, which are obviously very fragile. Then he asks for pictures of one of my Lefevers with a mirror bore, instead of providing actual evidence to support his absurd claim that:


Now, I can certainly take photos of the shiny bores of one of my Lefever's, or even an L.C. Smith, or Parker, Baker, Ithaca, Fox, or other vintage double I own that has shiny unpitted bores. But what would that prove without bore dimensions, and knowing exactly what the bore diameters were when the guns left the factory???

A real shotgun barrel expert should know this. A phony who makes rash unfounded statements, and hides behind a vast collection of pictures that prove little or nothing, is merely interested in fooling guys who don't know better.

mc, as a gunsmith, you know better... and I know better too. But the Preacher, instead of effectively refuting anything I said, chooses to attack me, and suggest that I should never intrude upon nonsense that he refers to as research. In this thread, his so-called research does absolutely nothing to support his silly idea that a shiny bore in a vintage gun means the barrels were likely honed. Guys who swallow that crap might actually avoid buying a gun with shiny bores, thinking it has almost certainly been honed. Only a small minority of gun owners have the tools to accurately measure bore diameters.

Maybe the Preacher should just start a BLOG, where he could regularly post his absurd and incorrect ideas about barrel pitting, bore honing, small bore Ithaca frame cracking, Fox frame cracking, barrel burst theories, the insane notion that removing metal by shotgun chamber lengthening can actually INCREASE the barrel wall thickness at the ends of the recut chambers, incorrect assumptions derived from very small sample of metallurgical tests, etc., etc. The Preacher really takes it personally whenever anyone questions any of the many incorrect things he posts here. With a Blog, he could have total control, and nobody could refute him or inform other guys that he is wrong quite often. He could accept comments from fawning admirers, and shut out any and all critics. He could post thousands of pictures, old ads, or obsolete pressure curves from his vast collection, and conceal the fact that he has very limited actual ownership and experience with vintage doubles.

Of course, maybe he just hasn't noticed that this is a FORUM, where guys discuss things and are expected to offer different opinions, facts, and corrections. I try to be careful about things I post because I know I will be roundly criticized if I post utter bullshit. Guys get corrected here all the time without crying that someone is "manipulating their emotions" or other psycho-babble stuff you'd expect to see in Ladies Home Journal. Maybe he just hasn't noticed that this FORUM is owned and operated by Dave Weber, and it is not the personal playground of the Preacher, where he is entitled to post whatever crap he wishes, right or wrong.

Thanks for that Drew. Good stuff. I never thought about corrosive primers being used in vintage shotguns before. I have two pre-1925 sxs shotguns that I shoot casually. Anyway, I think I will start using the spring steel handguard with those two vintage shotguns. The handguard is easy enough to slip on and off for a day out. Thanks again.
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TC

Just to confirm what Dave said

1927 .22 Kleanbore ad



1929 Kleanbore .22, centerfire & .410



1931 introduction of the other Kleanbore shotshells

It probably is important to recognize that with some scrubbing, significantly stained (I presume baked on powder/oil/lead residue?) barrels can be impressively cleaned up.
This is the as received Remington A grade evaluated some time ago. The gun was dropped in the snow after the burst and not cleaned.



After wrapping a Big 45 Frontier Cleaner pad on a rod, chucking it in a cordless drill, soaking in Kleen Bore's Formula 3 Gun Conditioner and goin' to town





Certainly not a "mirror" bore, and tiny pits are evident.

And without aggressive cleaning, one can not know that might be under the staining. The Southern 16g blow-up gun.