doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Sunlight and case colors

Thanks, Daryl. I did not remember that. If it satisfied Dr. Gaddy I'm comfortable with that, too. Amazing though, how old wives' tales can persist.

No arguement from me Stan, just opinion. I'm plenty satisfied that there are different types of oxidation, the most obvious, being pulling out somethng that's been in the back of a dark drawer, that has rust on it. As a protectant, not lubricant, oil has the role of resisting the formation of the wrong type of oxides? I'll go with Dr Gaddy on this, but at the same time, a remaining question is, why aren't original colors, common place. Extended period of time? Some of us might have an example or two of acquiring something that was ninety years old, and is now fifty percent older. Whatever causes patina, seems to be a slow process?

Again, I'll go with Dr Gaddy on this, but visual changes due to oxidation affect most things around us. How does this one process, without strict controls, escape untouched? I have no skin in the game to perpetuate wives' tales. If I am not mistaken, the science says a steel/iron surface needs to have a hundred percent coverage of certain oxides, to be able to resist the formation of additional oxides.

I discussed Dr. Gaddy's experiment with sunlight and color case hardening colors above. That was his experience with his method of color case hardening. One must realize that there must be many variations to the methods of color case hardening and the steels used.

My interest over the years has often been with shotguns by Baker Gun and Forging Company. Their method of color case hardening in later years produced very pretty colors of robin's egg blue etc. Sometimes when these case colors are worn or faded, the underlying metal looks to almost be plated , maybe like a nickel or almost chrome shine. I am assuming that this shine came from the polish given prior to coloring.

After Baker Gun and Forging Company sold the gun making business to H D Folsom in 1919, a different process was used in color case hardening Baker marked guns. This process had darker colors and seems to have been more durable colors than most other guns of the time. It is not uncommon to see examples of these guns with still vibrant colors, although the rest of the guns show wear. I do not know what process they used, but it was extremely durable.

Lefever Arms [non Ithaca] consistently used a method resulting in very pretty color case hardening. Guns showing wear often have better remaining colors on the sideplates than on the gun frames. I am assuming that this was caused by a different composition steel being used on the sideplates than on the frames.

As always your expertise is appreciated Daryl

This is the highest case color Baker image I have; a c. 1910 R grade





Some Smiths had a bit of 'mud' behind the colors



Hunter Arms Fulton

I suspect that the loss of case colors over time is a combination of several things. Surface contact with skin and gloves, oxidation of the surface caused by humidity, moisture and the various air pollutants we all get exposed to (automobile exhaust, stack emissions, volatile organics, etc.), & contact of a said surface with "life in general" (the baize in a gun case, the lining of a gun slip, the material on a car seat, etc.)

My little Dickenson Estate .410/28 had vivid case colors when I first got it (shockingly so! Way better than what I expected for what I paid) but... with use over the accumulating years (7-8?) it has noticeably faded. The colors are still present but they aren't nearly as vivid as they once were (I suspect that there may be even a natural "fading" process going on here as well). I suppose I could have prevented that by never using it but....why the hell not? It was a relatively inexpensive Turkish gun that I bought to use and learn about. To not use it completely defeats the purpose of having it. Does sunlight take it's toll? I would suspect that it does (clothing set into a display in the front of a store fades over time like you would not believe), along with all of the other "weathering" components of life. Automotive finishes have been engineered over generations to resist such "weathering" forces. I suspect that a traipse through the chemistry of automotive paints and coatings would give one a start into understanding how such things really happen. Sunlight is a very powerful force in this world, so I wouldn't dismiss it out-of-hand because of an anecdotal experiment that Dr. Gaddy performed on one occasion and over a limited period of time. That's not a knock on Oscar Gaddy (as I'm a big fan of his work) but I suspect that he was occupied with bigger things.

It would be useful to understand what the "primary forces" were in the loss of these wonderful gun finishes over time so one could take the necessary steps to reduce or prevent it. Coating the case-hardened surfaces in a protective finish seems to be somewhat effective (otherwise gunmakers over the years wouldn't have gone to the time & trouble). There seems to be lots of room for additional growth & understanding here, so who's going to be the next "Dr. Gaddy"?

I remember all the discussions about case coloring and one person on here said that he had a gun that sat in the corner of a room where the sun shone one it. And the sun removed the case coloring on the side of gun where the sun shined on it. I remember one person who kept insisting that the sun faded case coloring. (But I won't say who it is). Picture it this way: If a rusty nail sits out in the sun, will the sun remove the rust from it? The answer is no. It won't removed case coloring either.

About $69K separates the purchase price of these two guns (can you imagine that? I struggle with it). This circa 2017 20-bore Westley droplock only goes out in very controlled conditions (my buddy even carries a protective slip in the event it rains). I am hoping that Westly Richards has taken into account the need to protect the finishes on this gun, but I'm not holding my breath.

A shockingly beautiful gun, but with zero utility IMHO. It does not strike me that the owner enjoys the reality of it's possession. It seldom sees the light of day and he has taken to not mentioning it in conversation.

12 pages here
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=326247&page=all

Colt forum claim that Turnbull clear coats his case coloring
https://www.coltforum.com/threads/c...d=3089415&nested_view=1#post-3089415

Mike Hunter likely has an opinion
https://mikehunterrestorations.com/restorations.html

There is no question Turnbull clear coats. The work he did for me was coated. It further warms the colors as well as protects them. Classic Guns in IL also did this and perhaps Wyoming Armory (I may ne miss remembering on that one. ). All of them would leave it off on request

Isn't this basic physics? The surface is getting bombarded by photons which puts the molecules in a higher energy state which is not stable in the presence of some other compound (air, water, oil, whatever). Some degradation must happen. Maybe it just takes a really long time.