I bought a large load of Armusa loads about 20 years ago, including 2-1/2" 20s and 16s (no 12s). Out of that order I have shot mostly 28ga and like them. Got some without shot cups (intentionally) and most with shot cups. They shoot fine and kill doves as well as any other comparable lead loads I have used. Only other comment is the bores get a little dusty, but not an issue for me.