doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

That is my conclusion Raimey. Reilly like Trantor and others appear to have had connections to Liège dating to the early 1850's and the early days of the break-action guns. I've speculated (and others as well including Vic Ventors) that Lang and even Hodges, the "originator" of the English center-break gun, got his barrels and actions from Liège as well in 1854 . .how else to explain how British barrelsmiths decided to grind down the "shoulder" on the barrel chambers to create a forcing cone - a shoulder that was prominent on Lefaucheaux guns (also built in Liège).
27 Dec 1857 - "The Field":


I figure Reilly imported the first 40 or so Comblains - maybe more - and finished them; after all it was a collaborative effort. He might have proofed and finished another 100 or so in London. You'll see "H. Holland" (Harris Holland soon to be H&H) bought one from Reilly and sold it . . PUN 125 with an elaborate underplate to dress it up. Then Reilly moved production to Birmingham bumping the PUN's up to start anew at 5,000.

There are a couple of indistinct inspections marks on the breech. . one clearly UK. . the others?


Here is the new Chapter on the Reilly-Comblain. I'll edit it down a bit. This is conjecture but logical (so call it by its scientific term - - "analysis"):

*52 1868-70: Reilly-Comblain Breech Loaders (No Reilly SN):



Almost immediately after the Snider was formally adopted UK Secretary of War announced a new competition for a purpose-built breech loader. Possibly in response to this competition Reilly, still dreaming of a big military contract, in 1867 obtained sole manufacturing rights to Hubert-Joseph Comblain's breech loader, which had been patented in Belgium. The gun was assigned UK Patent No. 2778 of October 2nd, 1867 (Reilly is not mentioned in the patent). It fired the .577 “Boxer” (Snider) cartridge. The gun was featured in a May 1868 article in “The Engineer.”*52a

Reilly did not submit the rifle for the competition in summer 1867 as required (obviously). Rather, the entire competition was reopened in February 1868 after another wave of breech loaders was submitted and while the committee was working on accuracy issues for the barrels. The Reilly-Comblain, however, was part of the large group rejected in July 1868 when the committee settled on the Henry barrel, rifling and cartridge and selected a final 9 actions to be tested. In February 1869 the committee chose to unite the Martini action with the Henry barrel and rifling system and the "Martini-Henry" was born.*52b

Reilly mounted an extensive newspaper advertisement campaign for the Reilly-Comblain rifle in UK. The first advertisement appeared in Feb 1868 (when the competition for the action was reopened to late-comers) and ads continued almost daily until July 1868.*52c After that the ads were confined to long-range publicity contracts with guide books up until about 1870 when they disappeared entirely.*52d His advertisements spanned a relatively short time period and after the Reilly-Comblain was eliminated from the competition emphasized both "military and sporting uses" for the rifle.

Note: The Comblain in a new less awkward form was featured in newspaper articles and shooting contests throughout the early 1870’s especially in reports on UK Volunteer Services militia; UK and Russia were the two guarantors of Belgian independence. Reilly appears to have abandoned his association with Comblain by that time.)*52e. The Comblain was later adopted by the Belgian and Brazilian armies (though not in the Reilly-Comblain configuration); It was used by Brazil for 30 years. Reilly had nothing to do with these contracts.*52e

Per patent use numbers Reilly apparently finished, numbered or built some 600+ Comblain's in UK over 3 years 1868-71.
. . .It looks as if Reilly imported Belgian made guns for the Trial, PUN's 1-50 perhaps. PUN 14 for instance has Belgian proofs. PUN 37 also has a Belgian proof mark on the barrel and Liège "finished gun" proofs on the breech. PUN 37 also has a Reilly serial number 15492, which would date it to October 1868, the only Comblain found so far with a Reilly SN.
. . .Subsequently he built (or finished) 100 or so guns in London for the sporting rifle market selling some of them to other makers including one sold by H.Holland (PUN 125).
. . .Probably in fall 1868 production of these sporting rifles was transferred to Birmingham. It looks as if the PUN numbers were jumped up to start anew at PUN 5,000.
. . .600 rifles made/finished by Reilly or sold by Reilly to others "in the white" In the course of two years plus are not an inconsiderable number. Who bought these guns and where they went is something of a mystery. Perhaps various militia units adopted them; the units could choose their own weapons.

There are a number of Reilly-Comblain's extant. There is not enough information presented in the advertisements for these guns to be able to discern definitive patterns. However, following are some additional observations:
. . . . .-- The first existing Reilly-Comblain is use number #14. It has Belgian proofs. (See below for details). Since the first ad appeared in February, this gun likely was dated to March or April 1868.
. . . . .-- The earliest Reilly-Comblains up to at least PUN 37 have Belgian proof marks on the barrels. The PUN had to have been added in the UK.
. . . . .-- Only one of the Comblain rifles has a Reilly serial number 15492, PUN 37 dated to October 1868. This indicates that Reilly made (or finished) a very limited number in London, 37 between February and October 1868, 4 a month.
. . . . .-- The last extant Reilly-Comblain is use number #5439 with E.M. Reilly & Co., Sole Manufactures, New Oxford St, London on the action. It has Birmingham proofs. (See below for details).
. . . . .-- Most guns have “E.M.Reilly & Co., Sole Manufacturers, New Oxford St., London” just ahead of the breech. The Patent use number is stamped on the breechblock just ahead of the bolt.
. . . . .-- Most early Reilly-Comblains have only the London address (not Paris); however one trial gun has “Paris” stamped on the butt plate.
. . . . .-- Most of the extant guns with a PUN higher than 5000 have Birmingham proofs and have a “Patented by” or a “warranted by” “E.M. Reilly & Co., London, Paris” stamped on the stock or on the breech.

A Few Extant Reilly-Comblain Rifles:

. . . . .Patent use #14. This is the earliest Reilly-Comblain known. It was mentioned in a gun chat site thus information is quite limited. It is stamped on the barrel ahead of the breach “E.M.Reilly & Co., Sole Manufacturers, New Oxford St., London”; on the lock plate “E.M.Reilly & Co. London.” The caliber is .577 .The barrel is 30.5 inches long. The Obelisk can be clearly seen on the breech block; It is the Belgian Inspectors mark for final proof. It is bereft of other numbers other than #14 on its stock.*52f

. . . . .Patent use #32. .577 Reilly-Comblain rifle, serial no. 32. Blued 30in barrel, block and blade fore-sight, ladder rear-sight, the breech block signed 'E.M. REILLY & Co. RIFLE MANUFACTURERS, NEW OXFORD STREET, LONDON', block signed 'REILLY-COMBLAIN PATENT No. 32', plain color-hardened lock signed 'E.M. REILLY & Co. LONDON.”*52g

. . . . .Patent use #37. .Reilly SN 15492 (Oct 1868): 23 bore (.587) Reilly-Comblain rifle, serial no. 37. Block and blade fore-sight, ladder rear-sight, with London proofs along with a Belgian black powder proof mark on 30.5” barrels. The breech block signed H.COMBLAIN BREVETTE 37, plain color-hardened lock signed 'E.M. REILLY & Co. LONDON.” The barrel has a Liège proof mark overstamped by London proofs. The breech has Liège “finished gun” proof marks.*52h

. . . . .Patent use #125. .577 Snider, 20 1/2" barrel. The top of the action is engraved "H. HOLLAND / 98 NEW BOND ST. / LONDON", the lock plate is engraved simply "H. HOLLAND" and the breechblock is marked "REILLY-COMBLAIN / PATENT NO. / 125". A brass plaque affixed to the bottom of the stock beneath action is beautifully engraved "Reilly / Comblain / Patent / No. 25”. (sic. It's 125 per the stamp on the action; Harris Holland was as big of a con man as the rest of the gun trade) *52i

. . . . .Patent use ???. This rifle is stamped on the barrel ahead of the breach E.M.Reilly & Co Sole Manufacturers New Oxford St., London on the lock plate E.M.Reilly & Co. London. Caliber is .577.*52j

. . . . .Patent use ???. This rifle is stamped on the barrel ahead of the breach E.M.Reilly & Co Sole Manufacturers New Oxford St., “Reilly Comblain Patent” stamped on the breech; London on the lock plate E.M.Reilly & Co. London. Caliber is .577.*52k

. . . . .Patent use #5048: Reilly Comblain rifle; 30” barrel with Birmingham proofs. "25" (i.e. .577), saber bayonet lug and typical period Enfield sights; 5-groove rifling like the 1860 or '61 Short Rifles. Chambered for the .577 Snider round. Receiver ring stamped "E.M.REILLY & Co / SOLE MANUFACTURERS / NEW OXFORD STREET / LONDON" . Breechblock stamped "REILLY-COMBLAIN / PATENT No 5048". Butt is marked with a large 3" ink stamp "PATENTED BY E.M. REILLY & Co., LONDON & PARIS".*52l

. . . . .Patent use #5051: E.M. REILLY & CO. LONDON. Reilly-Comblain Patent No. 5051. On Barrel, E.M. REILLY & CO, SOLE MANUFACTURERS, NEW OXFORD STREET, LONDON. Warranted by E.M. REILLY & Co. London & Paris.*52m

. . . . .Patent use #5109 #5109: British Reilly-Comblain breechloading trails rifle. Overall length is approximately 49”. The 29¾” round .577 caliber centerfire barrel. Barrel is marked with the usual London proofs and caliber (25) mark. The breech is marked “E.M. Reilly & Co/ Sole manufactures/ New Oxford St/ London”. Stock is marked in ¼” letters on the right butt in an oval “warranted by/ E.M. Reilly & Co/ London & Paris.” There are also two small inspection stamps to the rear of the trigger guard tang. *52q

. . . . .Patent use #5298. Fusil d'infanterie, percussion centrale, modele E. M. Reilly ; calibre 14.8 mm ; canon poli blanc, poinconne et signe : "E. M. Reilly & Co., Sole Manufacturers, New Oxford Street London" ; culasse marque : "Reilly Comblain patent nr 5298"; platine avant polie blanc (carbon steel), marque : "E M Reilly & Co., London.”*52o

. . . . .Patent use #5439. E.M REILLY & CO, LONDON;.577 BREECH-LOADING CARBINE, MODEL 'REILLY-COMBLAIN PATENT', serial no. 5439, probably converted from a Pattern 1861 Cavalry Carbine. 18 1/2in. blued barrel, block and blade fore-sight, small elevating ladder rear-sight, the top of breech block stamped “E.M. REILLY & CO, SOLE MANUFACTURERS, NEW OXFORD STREET, LONDON”; the top of the breechblock marked “REILLY-COMBLAIN PATENT NO. 5439”, plain flat bar-action lock marked “E.M. REILLY & CO, LONDON,” walnut full-stock, the right hand side of butt stamped in large oval form 'WARRANTED BY E.M. REILLY & CO. LONDON & PARIS', iron furniture including two barrel-bands and jag-ended clearing rod, much finish remaining.*52p

All interesting conjecture indeed Argo44. Well you know Reilly had a presence in Paris, so did he register with the Paris Proof Facility? Did Reilly have a footprint in Liège? If so did Reilly register with the Liège Proof Facility? If not, who was his agent and how did he facilitate export? Did Reilly have a business relationship with Lambin and Compagnie, who was making some of the Comblains?? I suspect Hubert Joseph Comblain of Wandre was a prolific inventor and maybe not a true manufacturer as he had 19 weapons patents between 1854 and 1891. Comblain left the heavy lifting to the talented pool of mechanics in Liège? Why reinvent the wheel whilst they are making wheels next door?? Comblain advertised as >> Comblain Brveté à Paris<< so maybe Comblain & Reilly had a rendezvous in Paris and one or both were registered with the Paris Proof Facility. As I said Hubert Joseph Comblain and Lambin hitched their horses and filed protection periods in the mid to late 1870s for the lever-action Comblain.

Again, Henri Mangeot also hitched his horse with a Comblain, but it appears not to be Hubert Joseph but Dieudonné Joseph Comblain of Trembleur in the 1850s. So there was more than one prolific weapons inventor named Comblain.

I think I remember seeing the name >>Francotte<< coupled with the name Comblain rifle and he was very much like Reilly having his finger in everything. So they may have been an association there that allowed Reilly to get rifles to London??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I suspect something like >>Syndicat Liégeois pour la fabrication des armes de guerre<< was involved but it was a little later. I would hazard a guess to finger Francotte & Prilot & Fresart. It is these compagnies hat need to be chased in order to develop an accurate modell. I will mine a bit...


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Here's a parallel development of a Hubert Joseph Comblain platform from about the same time period:

>>Peter, I think you have made a very valid point in that sporting arms production was a very small part of overall production. Francotte & Associates aggressively pursued the largest weapons contracts available and appear to have sought to be gunmaker's to the armies of the world. Le Petit Syndicat of Ancion & Company, Dresse-Laloux & Company, Auguste Francotte, Prilot Fresart and possibly others was formed to meet the needs of military weapons contracts. Then Le Grand Syndicat was formed of the members of the Petit Syndicat along with Benthin, Beurer, P. Drissen, Falisse, Gulikers, E. Malherbe, Mordant, Brothers Renkin & la Societe Liegoise in 1870 in an attempt to meet the needs of the Franco-Prussian War with a slogan of sorts that no contract was too large. But the venture was short lived and I think it dissolved in 1876. Possibly at this time Auguste Francotte realized that he need to spread his umbrella to include sporting arms sales to the U.S. of A. developing a connection for higher rung examples.<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...;Words=beurer&Search=true#Post206081

Like I said, if the concern of Le Petit Syndicat of Ancion & Company, Dresse-Laloux & Company, Auguste Francotte, Prilot - Fresart is making wheels next door, why reinvent the wheel? Reilly appears to be a major player in England but would be peanuts in Liège. He would have to partner with some one & that some one would be a larger concern making wheels....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And too the mark of an encircled >>ELG<< over a Star is not a preliminary proof so it was later on in the process meaning that something closer to a completed platform was submitted to the Liège Proof facility, not just solely a tube. If the >>Perron<< is present, it was a completed weapon.

Sebus,

Raimey
rse

See the position of the encircled >>ELG<< over a Star. A preliminary proof would be hidden elsewhere. Syndicat Liégeois des Armes de Guerre was the Henry Ford of components....




https://littlegun.be/collection%20p...yz/a%20be%20syndicat%20liegeois%20gb.htm

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Unequivocally those are the marks of a completed weapon in Liège.

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey, that is very helpful. I'll clarify a bit what we know about Reilly, Paris and Liège.

Reilly opened his sales shop in Paris and almost simultaneously began advertising the Reilly-Comblain both in February 1868. But, I don’t believe there was a connection. Reilly always was a Francophile, something possibly related to Ireland and the Catholic Church. A French woman was found in his house during the 1861 census; he loved showing at the Paris Universelle world fairs 1855, 1867 where he won the whole thing, 1878 and 1889. He was convicted of trying to smuggle shells to his shop in Paris during the Franco-Prussian war violating UK neutrality, etc. I don't know if he spoke French but this is possible - some Reilly advertisements from the early-mid 1860's have "Ici, on parle français."

There was no Paris proof house before 1895. Bernard ran a proof house out of his shop but it was not mandatory. It wasn't until 1960 that completed guns in France were required to be proofed. Reilly, however, did not make guns in France and there was no French law requiring them to be proofed there.
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=618171&page=5

I do believe Reilly and probably all the early breech loading center-break gun makers in Uk including Lang and Hodges early on used Belgian tubes. Maybe Belgian actions - there was no infrastructure in London in 1855-56 for double tubes with hooks and lumps or center break actions as Blanch's obituary and the Reilly December 1857 letter to "The Field" made clear.

This cannot be proven as of now. However, this is alluded to in letters to "The Field." Supporting this, there is one Reilly gun 12453 (1862) (the SN is suspect - it could be earlier - possibly 10543 - 1858), a Lefaucheaux forward lever pin-fire which has faint Belgian proofs on it overlain by London proofs. All this is mentioned in the history.

I haven’t a clue how this trade worked, who sourced the tubes, etc. (I had some stuff I started compiling 6 years ago - Tranter's Belgian contacts. .reports on Birmingham Damascus barrel maker delegation visit to Liège - it got lost) But have a feeling there was a lot more going on between London and Liège than people want to admit. For instance, a lot of makers including Purdey and Reilly, advertised and imported Bastin sliding breech actions from Liège in the early 1860’s. I’ve seen references that claim Reilly was importing Liège made revolvers in parts and assembling them in London. In the history I put this as 1880 but it could well have been 1860. The source of these posters information is unknown.

Anyway, these London- Liège connections are worthy of a Doctoral dissertation.

Gene

Yes on the Paris Proof Facility and good point on that but if a retailer has an address on rue des Arquebusiers Paris, he just has to be a member of the non-Mandatory Paris Proof Facility, a member of the local Arquebusiers of Paris or a local hunt club??

Similar in Liège but there was an exception in the Belgian Proof Law where if a tube / gun was being shipped directly to another proof facility then the weapon could pass without additional proofs or proofs at all??? But that was a later time period.

But the marks will tell you the story, but you must listen carefully. Then again you must have them in hand to inspect that whole of the longarm to get the Story.

Yes, we work on that Liège Dissertation almost every day & have been for almost 20 years now...

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Of all the other Comblain mergers(those with the addition of another gunmaker), said gunmaker either bought a Comblain patent or was a co-sponsor of a Comblain patent in order to have their name hyphenated with the prolific Comblain. I just do not see any way Reilly could be above the fray here. In the end, always remember it is about the Benjamins......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse