Hello, I bought this one for these crazy double Damascus twist barrels but it was advertised as an Imman Meffert. It looked like a Meffert. I have 2 others and has very strong resemblance. What can you gentlemen tell me about this one. It’s a 16ga 31” barrels with silver game embellishments. I have 16x28ga tubes but hope I don’t need to have that done. Money shot, who is this?
The pattern welded tubes look to be acid etched, where you can actually feel them, then there looks to be some additional adornment. Many times this acid etched effort was faked by just turning patterns into the tubes.
Yes you can feel the etching. I have seen the fake ones, not this one and they ring better than my Krupp barrels. Lots of pitting but no dents or scratches, I may get lucky.I will send out to Dean Harris to have honed and checked out. Now that I have studied this mark does look like it could be a stylized I inside a M but I had never seen this one before obviously pre Hubertus. I can get use to looking down at this Has silver bands to match game birds, hel I could just hang it over the fireplace when not using this one and be perfectly happy. Guess it’s pre 1891 with these marks?
Thanks Raimey for the identification of the old Suhl stamp, Hope this “IM” mark helps someone in the future. The tarnished silver just blended in really well with the dirty laminate patterns. Do we have a date or range on the stamps?
As a sidenote, I spent the last night fighting an electronic worm that came in on some email & then infected my laptop, wireless router & HP printer. I would have never known but the HP printer would not configure after the worm destroyed the older NetGear WIFI router. I purchased a new one & everything seemed to work well but the printer just would not configure(oh the days of cables...). So I contacted HP and that let to Norton, which I have used since it began, and their software does not address. On to Metaverse & finally, finally reconfigure the HP printer. I had a lot of faith in Norton, but it failed me. Amazin' the new menacing viruses and those behind them.
So if you have any quirks from your WiFi, you might want to search for a Worm. From eating holes in Buffalo horn butplates, grips, triggerguard bows to eating you WiFi router..... Where will it all end¿¿¿
Early style fences & Lefaucheux style platform with what looks to be rebounding hammers. So I would use the platform and hammers to guess @ the date. I assume metal buttplate?
The wrought iron and very low carbon steel components of the laminate dissolve at different rates when exposed to acids The ancients "pickled" metals and pattern welded barrels using citrus juice and vinegar Later hydrochloric, nitric and sulfuric acid Some refinishers have found, much to their customer's displeasure, that ferric chloride at too great a concentration or applied for too long can etch so the surface of the barrels are roughened I think these are Joe's barrels
As a sidenote, I spent the last night fighting an electronic worm that came in on some email & then infected my laptop, wireless router & HP printer. I would have never known but the HP printer would not configure after the worm destroyed the older NetGear WIFI router. I purchased a new one & everything seemed to work well but the printer just would not configure(oh the days of cables...). So I contacted HP and that let to Norton, which I have used since it began, and their software does not address. On to Metaverse & finally, finally reconfigure the HP printer. I had a lot of faith in Norton, but it failed me. Amazin' the new menacing viruses and those behind them.
So if you have any quirks from your WiFi, you might want to search for a Worm. From eating holes in Buffalo horn butplates, grips, triggerguard bows to eating you WiFi router..... Where will it all end¿¿¿
Serbus,
Raimey rse
looks as though i'm going to have the opportunity to use this twice today - here, and in the ryanf post about the very early superposed....
It costs me never a stab nor squirm
To tread by chance upon a worm.
Aha, my little dear,
I say, Your clan will pay me back one day.
dorothy parker, 1928, "thought for a sunshiny morning"
best regards, tom
"it's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." lewis carroll, Alice in Wonderland
But for sure no badge of honour on the worm(s) that ate my WiFi router. Too I would hazard a guess that firm that sold me the worm medicine probably created the demon worm in the 1st place. We have worm blocks for our cattle but I see we are not in Kansas anymore Toto....
I agree, turned out to be what I was hoping for other than pits. I already knew about the pitting though. I can put together 3/4 oz 6000 lbs loads but if not, I bought those old briley tubes for just this situation. Thanks again.
I believe entire barrel was laminated together in the usual fashion, that would be the twist and the other 2 bands would be the Damascus. But I’m all ears. I wouldn’t dare fire this thing without Dean Harris looking at it first!
I don't have an illustration brother, but it appears that the straight ribband edge weld (red) is between crolle rods (with the wavy 'zipper' crolle rod to rod weld in blue) so the ribband was a Twist rod in between 2 Crolle (twisted) rods, rolled under heat and high pressure, then wrapped around a mandrel and the edges hammer welded (either by hand or mechanically)
Or maybe not It may have been Crolle - Twist - Crolle - Crolle rods
Spatial orientation was never my strong suite. Steve Culver would figure it out.
Hey Doc, was this a higher or more rare form of Damascus or just a mid grade thing? I assumed this was a more rare type since I had only seen it on higher end guns. This gun looks to be just a bit more than run of the mill but couple notches down from his higher offerings.
Thanks Hause for all the effort. So just to be clear, the lines I drew(not pun intended) attention to are mechanically added but rather are a by product of the etching process?
Indeed Hause, most interesting. I guess just seeing those >>Faux Damas<<, I automatically assumed that the interesting pattern was turned into the tube not a by product of the welding, then enhanced by the acid.
>>.....Phillip Poschinger looks to be the source for tubes in Ferlach or even Austria. In the early 1870s he had some sort of tublar hammer with 4 individual hammers(Rohrhammerwerk mit 4 Hammerschlägen), 4 water wheels(I assume quite large), 8 furnaces(?)(8 feuern) which he bought in 1866 and retooled with 6 water wheels(6 Wasserrädern von 70 Pfdrk. –need a translation) all the shop included 6 boring machines, 2 lathes, 2 grinders and the whole lot was in full swing in 1867 with the aide of 100 craftsmen. His facility manufactured pattern welded tubes of fine pattern and something like self-made Damascus tubes-( Jagdgewehr mit selbsterzeugten Damastläufen, Musterdamastlauf mit 6 verschiedenen feinen Damasten, 4 St. halbgeschweisste Damastläuf- on the last phrase I have no idea yet).
He more than likely was the tube source for Johann Outschar of Ferlach who began in 1858 and by 1870 he advertised as being a specialist in the luxury weapons department. He made pin-fire doubles and scatterguns as well double rifles, muzzle-loaders, caps guns, etc.( Kapselgewehre, einfache Stutzen und Flinten). In addtion to “real Ferlach” pattern welded tubes, he also sourced Bernard & Leclerc.
He looks to have offered muzzle-loader with a tube ½ pattern welded and ½ iron???(Vorderlader mit halbgedrehten Rubandnmastläufen und mit halbgedrehten Eisenläufen). But what is most interesting is his offering of Ferlach’s Rosendamastläufen and Ferlach’s Halbrosenläufen and twisted Rubandamastläufen.<<
Haven't seen that term but certainly possible. The tube makers named patterns whatever they wanted.
Another example referred to as "Combination Damascus" I think the ribband edge weld is again down the middle of the Twist rods
And just to confuse us this is a very different pattern than what U.S. makers labeled (Belgian made tubes) as Damascus Twist The lopin thereof; two sections of the end-on rod showing how the rod was 'stacked'
Franz Umfahrer is another possible source for Ferlacher tubes:
>>Franz Umfahrer, weapons and barrel maker of Klagenfurt, Kärnthon may have been a little larger regarding craftsmen with around 160 craftsmen but his hydropower was at 14 Pfdkr. His operation had 4 barrel forges( Laufschweissfeuer), 2 tube hammers, 4 barrel boring machines and 3 lathes. He founded his quaint business in 1853 and twenty years later it had really increased as he claims in 1872/1873 to have supplied around 7000 components to Austria, Egypt, Germany, Italy, Modlan Walchei(?) and Russia in that year or in total by that year which I'm more apt to believe(He advertises as supplying makers in the whole of Austria(Oesterreich), in Deutschland, Italien Russland, Egypten, in der T�rkei, Moldau und Walachei, by employing some 160+ craftsmen). He may have finished the barrels<<.
And brining up the rear, we have ....>>Ferlach's Johann Schaschl, who offered some 31 different varieties of pattern welded tubes, according to adverts.......<<
Raimey, You asked for a translation of 70Pfdrk. I'm guessing it is an old term for 70 Horsepower, if Pfdrk is Pferddruecken. The term I'm more familiar with is Pferdstark. Keep in mind, my English is pretty bad and my German is worse. Mike
Thanks Ford and in another older thread Mr. Lomas provided the same:
>>6 Wasseraden von 70 pfdrk = 6 water wheels from 70 pferdrucken literally horse pull a measure of torque that predates ps pferdstaube/ horse power,it lacks the element of time and therfefore reflects torque only.<<
The below is lifted from the above thread and looks to be well worth a read:
>>...... >>Wir beschränken uns daher im folgenden auf die Schilderung der Fabrikation von Schußwaffen und bitten den Leser mit uns an Ort und Stelle die Herstellung derselben sich anzusehen. Die freundliche Aufnahme welche wir bei den Herren Gebrüder Meffert finden giebt uns dazu die beste Gelegenheit ......<<
I have seen the artikel a couple of times in the Gazebo(Gartenlaube) - 1892 although I am confident the artikel is older, how much I can't say. It is an interesting read, an interesting read in that how Suhl commenced as a Salt Lick / Salt Mine( Der älteste Nahrungs zweig Suhls war allerdings nicht das Waffenschmieden sondern die Salzgewinnung welcher die Stadt). Salt was King @ one point and just visit the Salt Towers in Bad Nauheim where Elvis Presley had a residence. Then the Croatians(Führung des Feldobersten Jolani Kroatenbanden) under the leadership of Field Colonel Jolani in 1634 carted off all the weapons, not before reducing Suhl to a pile of ashes in 7 hours. This may explain how the Croatians & Slovens acquired their vast knowledge of weapons making & then were carted off to Ferlach, Austria? But it was feast or famine for the Citizens of Suhl, and Citizens of surrounding support cities like Benhausen(not mentioned), Heinrichs, Mehlis & Zella Sankt Blasii where weapons making support could be found, depending on if warring factions were fighting or in love. As a result & like Liège, the mechanics in Suhl concentrated on hunting weapons and affluent folks( Suhl bald zu neuer Blüthe Fürsten und Herren kamen nicht selten in eigner Person dahin) came many times in person to place an order. It describes their preferred wood source of either Italy, Switzerland or inland Pfalz(top choice) >>Zur Zeit wird zu Schaft und Kolben nur noch Nußbaumholz verwendet, welches man aus Italien, der Schweiz und der Pfalz bezieht; letzteres ist das beste.<< And that pattern welded tubes were sourced from the Belgian regions of Nessonvaux und Trooz. Then the article begins to describe a general path for a weapon to be made. Who it went to, their task, etc. When it when it went to the engraver; how the case colours were accomplished, etc.
But when you passed thru the lovely hamlet of Heinrichs, there one would find the best opportunity to fully learn the nuances of weapons making with the Fine Friendly Folks @ Gebrüder Meffert, where they welcomed you with open arms, greeted you with a full embrace & handed you a Daniel Webster Cigar/Stogie(well not really but one can dream?). Of course there's much more and I can elaborate more if anyone of the couple of folks that are still following along with terms like:
„Fischhaut" / Schuppenfischhaut - chequering
„Ausschäften" - all the components of the weapon out of the wood
„eingeschäftet" - all of the components of the weapon assembled / attached to the wood - antithesis of „Ausschäften"<<
I would have thought so. With pattern welded tubes and that type finish, touchmarks just do not survive. I think that is why the 2 marks were on the flats. I have often wondered why the flats were chosen as the palette for marks?
I just wanted to point out to the few following along the bona fide 2 Hammer forge & when they said >>2 Hammers<< they meant 2 Hammers....
I would really like to see a foto ofPhillip Poschinger's Rohrhammerwerk mit 4 Hammerschlägen or 4 Hammers....
When I can open up a widow of time, & it needs to be soon, my Great Great Grandfather Ellenburg designed & oversaw construction of a Grist & Saw Mill deep in what is now Bankhead National Forest and I would like to Survey it & draw up the design. I know from relatives long gone that it had a 26' diameter overshot wheel. Co Editor of Dietrich Apel's Website, Karsten Eden(Head Geologist of Alaska) attended University in Germany where the technology was developed many, many Moons ago & he has offered to assist me. The tall stone pillars for the wooden water flume are still in place.
It looks to have been similar to the above but with timbers to support the Gear & Overshot Wheel(26'). I have found 1/4 of the Gear and the timbers and hand hewn slots in the rockbed for the support & wooden water flume are of course still present.
Demand quickly outpaced the natural flow of the water & the mill was moved up closer to a Road & coined the Grayson Sawmill in Moreland, Alabama.
At any rate, to tie this back together, and even considering some advancements in the Hammers, etc. but could you believe that rudimentary mechanical device such as the hammers could result in such a Lovely set of tubes???
I’ve enjoyed following this thread, and I appreciate everyone who’s contributed to it. I had very little understanding of how Damascus barrels were made. This has been super enlightening. Raimey, I grew up near Huntsville, Alabama, and spent some days of my youth roaming around Bankhead National Forest. It’s really interesting to learn about your great great grandfather’s connection with the mill there. Thank you for sharing so much with us!
Pretty darn amazing. I sure hope the pits all hone out. Has .130 thickness in front of forcing cone and .080 6” .060 9” out. I don’t really want to use the 16ga to 28g tubes but I will just to be able to shoot with these gorgeous barrels. No dents or gouges. I like it!
Just to give you an idea of where these machines were using the True Force of Nature to practice their craft....
My youngest son Benjamin, who was named after the son of the designer of this mill(Samuel D. Elenburg)
I believe the Gear was fastened to a Wooden Wheel??
Much Work to be done to reverse engineer it, but I plan to accomplish it. Now don't think I am going to make pattern welded tubes.....
Too, my family owned the property before it was sold back to the Government to make Bankhead National Forest. Yes we do have several Copper Pot Stills stashed here & there of which I am searching.....
Well after reading lots of information about thickness in Damascus and confirming pits were mostly 10” from breach, I shot some 6200 psi 3/4 oz loads through the old girl with great success ( I looked like a bad version of myth busters). Lol. Restoration will commence!Thanks again for all the information guys!
That is Great News indeed. With the fibre / plastic shotcups & wads, I would clean up the pits but probably not hone them too much. There is just something about the sound when you ignite a cartridge in pattern welded tubes.....
Raimey, my ancestors were also millers. When they came up to Canada after the Revolutionary War (picked the wrong side, LOL) from the lower Hudson River Valley, they built a mill that ultimately was deconstructed in the 1960s and moved to a pre-eminent historical "pioneer" village in Toronto where it is the centerpiece of the collection.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
As I understand it, not the first mill in the family. Every Roblin in Canada is a descendant of the same family/couple that moved north in about 1793. I think they found their community in the Hudson Valley was no longer a comfortable place to reside, after the war.
My branch headed west in about 1870, started in grain trading, moved into politics, lawyering and the car business.
Last edited by canvasback; 05/05/2409:42 PM.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
Many Thanks Canvas-Back. Very insightful. I can just see you in the Used Car Business....
Serbus,
Raimey rse
My grandfather was a home movie buff. We have home movies of my great grandfather at his dealership in the 1920's after he had retired from politics. We also have movies my grandfather took in the 1920's of he and my great grandfather driving from Winnipeg to Hot Springs, Arkansas where my great grandfather liked to spend his winters. Hard to beleive the roads they took cross continent.....lots of it looks like a two track.
I'll leave it to you to put the thread bck on track! LOL
Last edited by canvasback; 05/08/2408:32 AM.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
Ah, I can probably get us back on track. PeteM was peddling a movie of the Belgians attempting to preserve the lost art of making pattern welded tubes before it was lost to the ravages of time. Not sure where all that went....
Ah, I can probably get us back on track. PeteM was peddling a movie of the Belgians attempting to preserve the lost art of making pattern welded tubes before it was lost to the ravages of time. Not sure where all that went....
Serbus,
Raimey rse
Something makes me think Pete might have sent me a link to that movie. It sounds very familiar. This would have been 15 years ago roughly. He and i corresponded a bit about Henri Pieper and his various enterprises and endeavors.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
What a trio with the left one(eccentric tipping breech??) having an Austrian/Bavarian style stock. I really like that hammergun and I think Steven Hensley even has an earlier Pinfire platform.
But I like the hammergun specifically for the adornment, which is seldom, seldom seen on Meffert offerings. Meffert management was of the opinion that they could roll out 3 run of the mill offerings to 1 >>fancy one<<. By the 1930s, the concern was rolling out 1000+ per year. But these years would be the heyday years for the Meffert Compagnie and soon war and imprisonment would follow.
Initially, Immanuel Meffert founded the concern in 1839 and almost 100 years later Gerhard Meffert in 1934 joined his father Bruno in the compagnie. Meffert would be the final Meffert to >>uphold the gun-making tradition.<< In the 2nd Major Disagreement of Europe, Gerhard served in the Germany Army and was taken prisoner in 1945 in Austria by American forces. After a couple months of detainment, he was released & sent home to Suhl where he was greeted by Russian Forces, arrested and sent to multiple Russian Prison Camps. For about 5 long years he bounced around from Camp to Camp and finally was allowed to return home in 1950. Then he made a solid attempt to raise the Meffert Concern from the ashes but the effort was nationalized by the Communists. For the next 9 years he was continually harassed by the >>Stasi<< and in 1959 finally capitulated, where he & his wife took as many fotos and drawings that they could carry, told only ONE friend giving said friend the fotos & drawings and set out for Berlin where they jumped to the West Sector via the >>Luftbruecke<<, never to return again. Too, with all this bad taste in Gerhard's mouth, he was quite disconnected from the Meffert Concern & its history. Said friend forwarded the fotos and drawings some years later preserving 4 Generations of Meffert Gun Making. But Gerhard could not stay away from the gun-trade and found employment with AKAH as their shop manager. I am sure there is more to the story.....
Anyway, Bruno was more than likely @ the helm when these gems rolled off the line....
That integration of alloys into the weapons platform by Meffert looks to be under a D.R.G.M. in 1909/1910 >> Leichtmetallen im Waffenbau<< or light metals in weapons construction. This would have been under management of Bruno, Justin & Richard or some combination thereof......
Too, there may be a unique story / history with Meffert's Radialstahlläufe or Radial Steel tubes. Meffert may have been the sole outlet for Ehrhardt's Rheinmetall vessel steel process. Akin to the Sauer - Krupp relationship, Meffert may have had a similar scenario with Ehrhardt / Rheinmetall and that may have been a typical pairing in Suhl. Much more research needs to be in this area.
When I say it was an underlever I mean a push down lever under the triggerguard. It was hammerless and had 3 cocking pin indicators on the back that tapered into the tang. I had a Purdey hammer double that was a Jones and have a Husqvarna hammer Cape that is a Lefacheux. It was like this https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/-203425FB95
Oh, Oh, oh....... H.(Henri) Roux(Snap) Underlever.... Yes, it was used by most on the early hahn(hammmer) dreilings until the makers were able to sort the tube selection process.
Although the underlever looks similar, this is actually a Berger-Pleß-Collath type underlever. I don't think it serves the same function as the Henri Roux, but it might??
When I say it was an underlever I mean a push down lever under the triggerguard. It was hammerless and had 3 cocking pin indicators on the back that tapered into the tang.......
That sounds like a Meffert >>Treff<< which has striker blocks. It may also have had the Meffert >>Hubertussicherung<<. Just like the hammerguns with the selector atop the top tang, there just wasn't any room for a top lever in the Meffert >>Treff<< platform.
Also interesting is that Immanuel Meffert passed this life in 1910, I believe it was.
Like this one. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1049834317 Yep now have 4 will share pics later, looks like this one only needs some screws straightened out. Couldn’t resist that engraving with bicyclists behing the deer in background, super unusual. Must be a era thing?
Prior to WW2(and maybe awhile after), automobiles were beyond the reach of many Foresters and bicycles were often used to patrol the reviers. One of my favorite German Forester jokes had a Bicycle in it. Mike
Thanks guys, really like the engraving on this one. Had seen a Nimrod a while back almost certainly the same artist. Reminds me of the bulino bank note style.
Not my favorite rifle caliber but with some brenneke slugs this will be a fun timber stand whitetail gun. Any suggestions on 9.3x72r bullet for such use would be appreciated. I’m guessing something that will expand well at slow velocity. I have never hunted or reloaded any cfr over 30 cal before. I see the off the shelf 193 gr S&B offering is available? I will most likely buy dies soon as I see what bore looks like. Any wisdom on this caliber?
Jtplumb, Go up two forums to the thread "H. Scherping 9.3x72R", a lot of discussion about bullets. Groove diameter is important. If it will chamber, the S&B factory ammo will work well. If it won't chamber, maybe we can advise on that. The S&B ammo uses the TESCO type bullet mentioned in that thread. It is useable in barrels with different groove diameters and will expand at the factory velocity. The reason there are so many 9.3x72Rs are around, is they were very popular in their day. They wouldn't have been popular if they didn't work well for the conditions they were used in. Mike
Ah found Mr. Fords explanation I had just read Re: H. Scherping 9.3x72 ellenbr #647016 05/17/24 09:00 AM Offline Der Ami Sidelock ** D Joined: Jul 2012 Posts: 4,487 Likes: 211 East Alabama Raimey, Is this rifle yours or Themauserkid's? Great photos but no ID of the owner. The 118,35 is the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter expressed in gauge measurement, dating the rifle between 1893 and 1912. In my experience this bore diameter most often equates to .358-.359" groove diameter. This suggests the possibility of using the Tesco style bullet, 35 Rem. (180 or 200 grain, the new Flex tip for the Remington) or several different cast bullets. Is there a proof load shown on the side of the barrels? If so, bullet weight? Important for regulation. Mike
Have you not watched the >>Swing Shift<< episode of >>Hogan's Heroes<< where the gang goes to the local cannon factory owned by Hans Spear(Otis on the Andy Griffith Show) and they modify production so that the tubes aren't fully bored an then trick the inspector who is doing QA/QC on the prospect cannon barrels? All my German is from Hogan's Heroes...
Jtplumb, Maybe. The measurements were made using gauge rods or pins. If the barrel is marked 118.35 (8.64mm) that means the 108.49-gauge(8.89mm) rod would not pass through the barrel, but the 118.35-gauge rod did pass. This can result in a .25mm variance in bore diameter. The groove diameter then is twice the groove depth (which can also vary) plus whatever the actual bore diameter is. The way to find the actual groove diameter is by driving a lead ball or slug into the barrel and measure it across largest diameter (an uneven number of grooves complicates this). Barrels marked 108.49 often have groove diameters of .362-.363". This is under the original 1891 Proof law. In 1911 improvements in the law were made, resulting in bore diameters being expressed in millimeters (in .1mm steps) and adding a number for case length, also in mm. This improvement made matters a little clearer but didn't address case dimensions other than length, nor shape. Accordingly, the same mark can appear on rifles chambered for different nominal calibers. Therefore, these marks do not show the nominal cartridge, only the bore diameter and case length. With these two numbers, we can guess what the cartridge is and sometimes the guess is correct. It was not until the Proof Law of 1939 that it was required to clearly mark the guns with the commonly used name of the cartridge it was chambered for. Are we confused yet? Mike
They are stretched a smidgen. One is ever so slightly sticking out, wouldn’t cause a slam fire yet but will get addressed now. Set trigger work perfectly. Will just have to get use to a reversed safety.
Thanks Mike for the bore information. For now I just hope the S&B FL fits in the chamber, since most likely will always be shooting this thing in timber.
Jtplumb, If they don't chamber and a chamber cast shows the chamber is one of the 9.3x72Rs other than the "N" version, there are a couple possible solutions. You might be able to modify the cartridges to fit the chamber, or it can be rechambered. This is one of a couple rechambering jobs that doesn't require re-proof, even under German law. While I would prefer to keep the gun original, it is yours, not mine. There are a couple other cartridges it could be chambered for and carry the 118,35 proofs. One is 9x58R Sauer& Sohn, others are 9.3x57R or 9.3x70R. I f a chamber cast shows it is chambered for one of these, you can handload for it. Mike
Jtplumb, If they don't chamber and a chamber cast shows the chamber is one of the 9.3x72Rs other than the "N" version, there are a couple possible solutions. You might be able to modify the cartridges to fit the chamber, or it can be rechambered. This is one of a couple rechambering jobs that doesn't require re-proof, even under German law. While I would prefer to keep the gun original, it is yours, not mine. There are a couple other cartridges it could be chambered for and carry the 118,35 proofs. One is 9x58R Sauer& Sohn, others are 9.3x57R or 9.3x70R. I f a chamber cast shows it is chambered for one of these, you can handload for it. Mike
Could be 360-1/4 express. My stalking rifle was chambered for it. Its the original 9.3x72r but has a slight taper difference. I just reamed the chamber to 9.3x72rN and had no issues in chambering/firing or case integrity
journeymen, Yes, it could be the 360- 2 1/4", the 9.3x57R is the German designation for the same cartridge. A lot of German cartridges were based on the nominal 360- 2 1/4", some longer, some shorter and some with different diameters of bullets. Brad Dixon has a whole chapter in nis book, dedicated to cartridges based on that case (cases with head diameters from .427 to.434" with a rim are based on the 360). Mike
Although I would be cautions in using the term >>Express<< unless stamped on the tube and except when just referring to cartridges & parent cases. Although I just do not remember if 9,3X72R had an >>Express<< designation? I will have to look.
Raimey, There is an "Express" proof for the 9.3x72R, shown as a crown E. This mark appears on two of my 9.3x72Rs, even though neither of them fall into the 99.7gauge designation but are close to .360. The "Express" proof is a little stronger than the normal proof, but certainly it does not make a magnum class rifle of the 9.3x72R. You may find the term "Express" applied to rifles, to cartridges, or to bullets (the Tesco style). Sometimes it is applied mainly for advertisement. Context applied to the term is more important than the term itself. Mike
Back to the 360 2 1/4 and the 360 2/14 EXP. They are the same case but the non EXP rifles are of the BP era with slow twists and a 200ish grain bullet. The EXP proof rifles are more recent and have fast twists and are marked for a 300 grain bullet and 25 or 30 grains of CORDITE (not to be used in a rifle not proofed for it).
So Ford are you saying there isn't a negligible difference between the 9,3X72R Schießpulver / Schuetzen powder loading & the later 9,3X72R Schultze powder/Express loading, only the dimensions?
Raimey, No, I'm saying the express loading only increases the pressure a couple thousand psi and puts the cartridge in the 35 Rem. class, not 358Enterkin class. Chamber dimensions of my two "Express" proofed 9.3x72R rifles are different, but not because of "Express" loading; one was proofed with a 13-gram bullet and the other with a 12-gram bullet. Both will chamber the more or less standard 193 grain bullet, but only the one for the 13-gram bullet will chamber handloads with my favorite bullet, the H&G 512c 208 grain blunt nose bullet. The other one uses a 200 grain (about)bullet from a shortened Lyman# 366406 mold. Mike
No, the >>540<< has nothing to do with the kalilbre. Probably an assembly # or subcontractor #. But what is interesting is the Imperial Eagle on the underside of the left tube which is more an Arsenal or Sauer type Imperial Eagle. Plus there looks to be a Schilling Forge mark partially covered by the lower rib on the underside of the right tube.
when i happened upon this meffert drilling, with "alluminum reciver with ingraving"....i remembered the references to the dural receivers, and thought i would place this into this thread. not a wealth of photos, or information, but the gun seems in decent condition...
many years ago, when i kept a table at the astrohall (hgca show) for 10 - 12 years....there would be an occasional dural framed combination gun show up - i've handled several back in the day.
can't say that i have any recollection regarding the names on them - information in this thread seems to indicate that meffert was the primary source of them....and as this drilling shows, there could be many names marked on ribs/floor plates/etc. with all of them originating with meffert.
best regards,
tom
"it's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." lewis carroll, Alice in Wonderland
Leichtmetall Dural technology looks to have been driven(flown) by the aviation sector. In 1930 the Meffert concern decided to pursue the development of technology for a lighter weight drilling(possible 3 scatterguns in 16 or 20 bore) by skeletonizing the whole lot wherever possible. Then someone associated with Meffert, a Light-Bulb turned on & in 1931 they sourced 3 blocks of an aluminum alloy coined the name „Dural“ were sourced and 3 Blitz Dreilings were made as prototypes and sent out with a travelling salesman. Said Travelling Salesman returned with zero orders and Meffert thought they have waisted a lot of time, effort & money. Then 80 orders hit their doors and they were unprepared. The rest is history. They had to adapt steel inserts for the wear surfaces to round out the project.
I have made a cursory search for the culprit of „Dural“ but it looks to be a byproduct of WWI and was common in the aviation industry before 1924.
Too the first „Hubertus Dural“ actions had the name „Hubertus Dural“ inlayed in Gold and the actions were coated in Black Lacquer a hard anodizing technique was devised.
The Hubertus Lebrecht Sicherung or Hubertus Forstmeister Lebrecht Safety was a unique safety found on Meffert offerings where a Forstmeister named Lebrecht came to Meffert with the idea of the safety.
To my knowledge & long conversations with Dietrich, I just do not think Forstmeister Lebrecht made any weapons? This Safety is the >>Meffert Grip<< Safety.
Can you pleasure us with a foto of safety you refer?
Meffert drilling with said saftey followed by myLebrecht. Meffert’s looks to be a french ideal extractible combined with Lebrechts patented saftey. Maybe son in Amberg sold it to Meffert?
I have read that Meffert owned the business of Reinhard Stahl)(Born in Selb -10.06.1832 , died in Suhl - 31.01.1880), which was ran by Babette Stahl, the wife of Reinhard, who was @ the helm until 1900/1901 when Dornheim(GECADO) purchased the concern. But Meffert was somehow coupled in the effort? Maybe in 1886 Meffert was a partner or owner when the concern B. Stahl has a footprint in Suhl? So Meffert was aggressively pursuing outlets for his wares.
Hum, well that brings on more talk. But I am not aware of any cross-sourcing/collaboration of technology between Büchsenmacher Karl Leberecht(1848-1933) in Amberg and Meffert/Forstmeister Lebrecht. Leberecht had the >>Hahnlose Selbstspannerflinte<< along with the >>IDEAL-Drilling-Sicherung<<, where French and German technology collided. Leberecht had DRP # 257748 in 1913 for „Umstellvorrichtung für Jagdgewehre mit Stechabzug“.
The spelling of Forstmeister Lebrecht and Büchsenmacher Leberecht may be the differentiating factor?? But very odd that it all gets wadded up in a Meffert?? Happenstance, maybe, maybe-not.....
Not too terribly odd & probably commonplace as Forstmeisters had the pulse of the Game & Hunters plus they all were clients of Gunamkaers & Bicycle makers, who many times were one in the same. In Germany the Forstmeister leaned more to the Game side of things rather than cutting timber.
I do enjoy the Meffert guns now. Drilling is tight and have shot the shot tubes. I ordered some S&B 9.3x72r since seems to be the correct length of chambers and the shell holder in the butt. If it’s not that caliber it will most likely become that one.
Yeah, I'd probably order them too & maybe resize them as I just do not like reloading the 9,3X72R. Either BP, which I really don't mind but you must keep it squeaky clean or filler / „Kapok“. The Case is just too Bloody long if you don't use „Schießpulver“ / Schuetzen Pulver.
S&B 193gr 9.3x72r chambered perfectly. Very happy I can buy more. Bought 2 boxes this time around to see how they group. Thanks for your help as always couldn’t and wouldn’t buy some of these wonderful guns without having you guys backing me up with your extensive knowledge. Thanks
I use ammoseek.com 52.00 a box plus shipping. Hoping this thing is accurate with what seems to be .002 larger bullets than the grooves but only using calipers. Didn’t slug the barrel but these factory 9.3x72r dropped in perfectly.
With regard to the S&B bullets being larger than the groove diameter of a specific rifle, they are designed and manufactured to avoid excessively increasing the pressures when used in such rifles. With regard to the ammo being expensive, it certainly is, but seems to be about the same as pre-covid prices while other cartridges are considerably more costly. The long-term cost of shooting a 9.3x72R can be moderated by reloading the S&B cases, which are boxer primed. Mike
I have been fortunate in always finding Norma 9.3x72R brass along the way and now that I no longer have a 9.3x72R rifle to feed all the new brass has either been converted to 360 2 1/4/9.3x57R (360) or is being held in reserve. My latest use for it is a 360 Nitro Rigby/Jeffery single and I'm sure if I approach the 30 grains Cordite with 300 grain bullet load that it is proofed for I may run through some brass. The brass that I used in my first 9.3x72R back in the 1970s is still in use (and I have never shot black in it or used fillers).
Once zeroed in and the three different flip up open sites are properly ranged, 5 boxes will last me a lifetime. Hope I didn’t sound distrustful, I have never messed with cast bullets. Only reloaded 270, 30/06, 300wsm, 7mm rem mag and a few 6.5x 58r ( which hasn’t worked out yet I’m waiting for my new custom scope mounts adapted to 1” rings from original). Usually nosler and Barnes bullets. I have no problem paying 50-60.00 a box for this beauty.
Hum, so no Blackpowder nor filler.... What powder did you stuff in the cases?
I was talking to Ford earlier & I had a good laugh. We were discussing parent cases and leaving the parent headstamp. I had mentioned that I had some 9,3X74R that were converted to 9,3X72R and he said that he even had some 30-06 cases that had been converted to 9,3X72R. Then Ford went on to say that sometimes confusion arises when a gun is sold & loaded converted brass with the parent headstamp accompanies the longarm. My laugh came when I said can you imagine someone trying to stuff a bona fide 30-06 round in the 9,3X72R saying it won't go.....
Raimey, I pulled a couple of cards from the way back file - a time when we didn't have all the choices we have today or the internet to see what others were using. Depending on what the rifle liked, of course, but it looks like 28 to 42 grains of 3031.
Jtplumb, Not to get away from 9.3x72R but I noticed your comment about trouble with a 6.5x58R and Nosler or Barnes bullets. Did you "slug" your barrel or just assume it is .264"? Most 6.5x58R/6.5x48R or 6.5x70R are .260-.261", groove diameter. This may be the source of your problems. My own 6.5x58R has very shallow grooves, in addition to the small groove diameter. I often use oversize bullets in 9.3x72Rs, and 8x85I/IRs, but am very reluctant to do this with that particular 6.5x58R. I make my .261" by sizing .264". For this, you can't use solid or partition bullets as donors and must use "cup and core" type bullets. Mike
Ford has a Doctor's appointment today in Columbus but I hope to catch up with him and drop off some 32 bore shotshells this evening & see the 6.5mm he has cobbled together .
I haven’t slugged. Family had use rifle with cast and sierra round nose bullets over the years. Barrel is marked 6.3. Others had recently recommended using.257 bullets. Rifle had never been accurate, probably why. I will definitely be back in touch when that drilling comes back.
HalfaDouble, You are fortunate that it has a .264" barrel; but twice blessed that it is a Heeren. Is it 6.5x58R S&S or a rimmed version of the 6.5x58 Portuguese? Mike
Jtplumb, For what it is worth, mine are also marked 6.3. Rifles intended for .264" bullets(6.7mm) are typically marked 6.5mm as the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter. Mike
Not sure whether we should start a new 6,3mm thread of just corrupt this one more?
Had a lovely visit with Ford where I dropped in on he & his wife right @ dinner time where he & his wife had one of my favourite meals, Brussel Spouts & Cube Steak, but I had already eaten earlier. So I missed a fantastic meal. Down the stairs to the Ford Museum & Man Cave, we had several discussions. The 1st with his Louis Nappworst in Braunschweig Kipplauf by Franz Jäger then a REMO in 32 Bore over 6.3mm. Made in Z-M in what looks to be July 1913. @ least I think it was 32 bore as we discussed several.....
Frame w/ 2 serial numbers. Probably that of the mechanic in Z-M and REMO
Rifled / solid projectile tube was sourced from Syndicat Liégeois d’Armes de Guerre, which was composed of Jules Ancion & Co., Dresse, Laloux & Cie., Auguste Fráncotte & Pirlot & Fresart. There are Austrian marks & a final diameter of 6.3mm found just above the script >>FK<<.
So the Austrian final pass datastring aides in the 1913 date, which is difficult to discern from the Z-M date-stamp. But what is odd is that there isn't a Number on the Breastplate of the Double-Headed Habsburg Eagle.
Converted 30-30 Case and fire formed by Ford.
See how Ford removed some thickness by facing the 30-30 case removing any trace of info of the Parent 30-30 case.
We discussed 3(three) 6,3mm:
6,3X 48R 6,3X 58R
and 6,3X57$. Also, we had an interesting discussion of another 8mm besides 8X57IRS, 8X57IR and 8X57R-360.
Plus a 5,6mm rim thickness comparison between the American 5,6mm & the European 5,6mm....
Note in Raimey's posting that the 6.5x57 discussed was 6.5x57R, there is no 6.5x57S. This 6.5 takes a .264" bullet, not .261". Also, when thinning rims from the rear, I deepen the primer pockets with a primer pocket uniformer. Previous sectioning of case heads showed there was enough material left and so far, experience bears this out. The other 8mm discussed was the 8.2x57R Hagen AKA 8x57R Express. The Louis Knappworst was a different rifle, namely a Franz Jager 9.3x72R with Express proof. The 32 ga/6.5x48R was a REMO made for marketing by someone else. Mike
To get even further off topic, don't forget >>D Day<< tomorrrow, 80th Anniv. We had a couple Warriors from Huntsville to travel to the event. I think their ages were like 104 years?
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