doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Help with German shotgun proof marks

Need some help with German proof marks. I know this is a 20ga with 70mm chambers but looking for more info on these marks and wondering if this means the gun is nitro proofed. I’ve searched and haven’t been able to find these proof marks anywhere.

Any help would be appreciated. German 20bore

A little new for me, but looks like München June 1998 to me.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

mlaird37,
The marks seem to be postwar Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) marks. We all remember the citizens standing on the Berlin Wall, breaking it down for the re-unification, but I don't know "off the top of my head" when the legal event occurred. By the typical protocol for dating proof, the 698 would be June 1998. This seems a little late for "West Germany" and may be unified "Germany"(to look it up, I would have to get out of this program). The shield with the checkered pattern is the mark of the Munich proof house, but it was(is) used by "sub" Proof Houses, under the direction of the main one in Munich. There is an eagle stamp next to the shield, which is not legible. The form of the eagle and any letters underneath it is meaningful to understand the mark. It would be helpful if you could post a legible photo or describe the letter(s). If you provide this, we can provide you the meaning of the stamp.
I hope this is of some help.
Mike

At the end of the Red Arrow looks to be >>Eagle over N<< or Nitro. The other orange encircled marks are quite worn. Can you make them out?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I don't think the marks circled with orange are actual proof marks but inhouse, process or maybe workmen's touch marks (unusual form for that though).

mlaird37,
Re. your question about nitro proof, note Raimey's comment.
Mike

Gentlemen, remind me, what year did Germany start putting 3 or 4 digit date of proof stamps on guns?

Post 1923 only know because of these fellows here Raimey/Der Ami

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I wasn't born with the knowledge. I learned from Dietrich Apel. Too, I give the tip of a hat to the pedantic Axel E. Dating in Suhl officially began in September, 1922 and for 6 months a ledger number was associated with the date-code. Either Suhl used a date-code & ledger number for about 6 months or they were sending their tasks to the Z-M proof-facility. I have read and/or been told that there was a Suhl Proof Facility renovation about this time, but I think it was a year or 2 earlier?? Maybe a trip to Suhl will ferret out the info here?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ford:


Just to remind myself, I'll be in Auburn around the 1st week of June as my youngest Jäger(sohn) will be competing as a Forester for Top Forester in the State Competition. He scored 100% @ in Tree ID @ the County Level(1st time in 34+ years for our school), where he is Top Forester and received a check from the Local Farmers Association, to send his team to the Regionals where his calculator failed him due to old batteries and using a pencil & his brain he catapulted his team to the State Completion. I'll stop by & we'll talk about Suhl Date-Codes....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I know you are proud of your son; the pride is well earned (I suggest he carry an extra battery in his pocket, saves stressful times). I'll be glad to see you, we can discuss many things.

Jtplumb,Recoil Rob,
The above post 1923 date is for Suhl, Zella Mehlis started much earlier (also included ledger number). See Raimey's comment above about the 6-month difference.
Mike

Raimey,
Congratulations to your son, and you, for his achievement. He should be proud, and I know young people don’t get into natural resources without strong role models. Let us know how he does.

Larry

Oh I will for sure. Benjamin told his FFA Teacher in the 8th Grade that he was going to win it all for him and you know how a teacher thinks of 8th Graders these days. But 3-4 long years later, Benjamin & his team accomplished it. Now his has made in the 90% most years. Some years with advanced classes & sports, Benjamin doesn't have room for FFA Forestry but studies on his own. Now there are other contemporaries of Benjamin in Welding, etc. so our Small School is really making a showing and to be honest most of these kids have a Grandfather as their role model. Sad but true.

We have the average, run of the mill trees mastered along with the Biltmore Stick, Pacing & Compass..... But tree types like the Bald Cypress, Basswood, Chittum, Fringe Tree(Old Man's Beard makes a great tea for Gall Bladder & Kidney issues), Sourwood, etc. is where we are focusing. I guess we need to throw in Live Oak too.....

But the sad part of winning State & going to Nationals is that Benjamin would be barred from competing his Senior Year. Tough Life Choice, like the many we go over day after day after day.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And too, after the fundamentals in Highschool coupled with Basketball, Football, Forestry, Farming(we have a top notch registered Beefmaster cattle herd that we have been workin' on for 30+ years) Benjamin is moving on to Austrian & German Proofmarks....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks, the gun in question is a very svelte 16ga marked Emil Kerner Suhl, and...St. Louis!, Probably made for a retailer in the US but no date code, only a serial number, 1817 marked on everything. Nice little "blitz action" gun.

Had to comment when reading your list of trees. We moved from the Appalchian foothills in Kentucky when we retired. The land was hilly and dominated by oak, poplar and hickory forests, which took over from the American Chestnut after 1930. Elwvation was around 700 to 800 feet. Coming to Lexington I didn't really notice the difference in tree stands until we bought 30 some rural acres. The land here is mostly flat and 1000 feet in elevation. I had noticed that one large reservoir has a large concentration if cypress in the shallows. I looked through our land and found a few walnuts, a few poplar but they are few and far between. Wild cherry everywhere, osage orange everywhere, elm and ash in abundance. Butternut was a common building material here in the old days. Rocky land is full of hemlock. The tree you mentioned that I now hate is the sourwood. I didn't know what it was (had never seen one before) and uit is everywhere.An arborist for a tree trimming company identified it for me. It is my most detestable tree. Grows tall and thick everywhere quickly then develops interior rot and eventually rots completely through and comes down in a moderate wind. It is so heavy and waterlogged that when it falls it does massive damage. I have cut up several that fell and when trying to buck the tree, the inner cavities have filled with water and it ejects copious amounts of the foulest smelling liquid I have encountered around a tree.

I was amazed that we moved 90 miles and 300 feet in elevation and encountered a plant culture that is like an alien universe compared to where we moved from. The bio culture where we lived continues for hundreds of miles eastward with hardly any change. The study of biodiversity in closely linked areas is really interesting.

Recoil Rob,
I believe Emil Kerner's son Ernst worked in the US for some years between the wars. Without looking it up, I don't recall that he worked in St. Louis, but he could have. Ernst was the "other" son, not the one in "Emil Kerner und Sohn".
Mike