doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Franz Jäger Heroldbüchse - Völker Engraver

As promised a thread on Franz Jäger to prevent from further corrupting threads like the Immanuel Meffert, etc.

Louis Nappworst in Braunschweig retailed Kipplauf by Franz Jäger

Nappworst is still in business today: https://www.knappworst.com/


Franz Jäger along with the DRP 2553 where the >>2553<< has nothing to do with the Patent and is more than likely a serial number. It is a Jäger - Simson marriage with a long hook but I am not sure which Jäger patent he is touting???? Maybe the hinger pin screw??






Adornment by Engraver Völker as a Modell Nr. 78.

Offered in kalibers from 6mm to 9,3mm along with Mantelgeschoßpatron 6,5X27 and 8X58 1/2( 2 grammes of Blättchenpulver). One interesting chambering noted was 8X57/369, which must be a typo??

More later when I have a few more minutes....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

On one advert the kalibers were 9,3X72, 8X57/369(360?), 6,5X52, 5,6X35(Vierlingspatrone), 8,15X46(Schützenhülse), 22 lang und andere Patronen angefertigt, bei denen die Verschlußbeanspruchung, nicht stärker ist als bei den zuerst angeführten Patronen. Or other cartridges / chamberings whose pressure do not exceed the aforementioned.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The Jäger Modell Nr. 78 passed thru the Suhl Proof Facility betwen 1912 & 1923 then once again in 1935, possibly for the Express proof? The burred ellipse with >>GG<< should prove an interesting mechanic chase.... 8,7 mm in the Final State on the 1st pass between 1912 & 1923 then 8,8 mm on the 1935 pass. Slightly bore a bit or miss-measurement??



Load Data of 12 grammes of a Copper Jacketed Bullet

Next, Ford & I moved on to the 8X57R/360-a favourite of mine.




A Ford Original....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
That is not an 8x57R (360), rather it is a mockup of an 8.2x57R Hagan (AKA 8X5R Express). The confusion is caused because I made the mockup using an original 8x57R (360) case. This confusion illustrates why I prefer to thin rims from the rear (removing headstamp) when thinning is required while case forming from different donor cases. FWIW, the 8.2 is a tapered case, while the 8X57R (360) has a necked case. My H.Pieper "Rationnel" with German proofed SXS combo barrels has a rifle barrel that slugs .318" at the muzzle end and .323" at the chamber end. At one time RWS or their predecessor made two different versions of this cartridge: one with a .318"bullet, and the other with a .323" bullet. Adding to the confusion, the gun was sold to me as an 8.15x46R (because it chambered an 8.15X46R cartridge) but it turned out to be 8.2X57R Hagan instead. The seller made it "right" w/o hesitation.
Mike

No Ford I never said it was. You are not reading what I typed in black & white, overanalyzing, over-reaching, bordering on being pedantic, all in an attempt to find something wrong with a post offer a correction. That is what is an issue with these boards is that everyone wants to find something wrong with the previous post, belittle the previous poster & offer a correction all in the name of kickin' dirt in the previous poster's face, poke them in the eye in an attempt to use them as a stepping stone in this elevator of quciksand. Just human nature.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
You said we moved on to the 8X57R, a favorite of yours (mine too) and the very next photo shows the mockup of the 8.2X57R Hagan. What is anyone to think but the photo is of the 8x57R (360), there was no other explanation of the photo. I never did to you what you accused me of. I didn't say a word about you posting photos of my property without asking because it was fine with me since you started the thread to talk about the Jaeger instead of the Meffert. The only thing anyone could construe as an insult was that someone sold me a rifle, citing the wrong caliber, but even then, I said he made it right. Maybe you should read what you said about me, again, and decide If I would do that after the much-appreciated gift you brought me.
Mike,

Good looking rifle. Does it use a lifter or ejector for the case?

journeymen.
It uses a common extractor, not an ejector.
Mike

prior to commenting, i want to state a disclaimer....it is not my intention or desire to high-hat anyone, or proudly lay claim to supreme knowledge - i have benefited immensely from my time haunting these pages, and have made efforts not to descend into the petty practices that seem to delight a number of the participants. those battles fought for such insignificant "honors", sometimes amuse me, but more often simply cause me the shake my head in amazement.

i wonder if the jager patent indicated is a single barrel version of the verschluss patent, that utilizes detachable side plates....which access an axle pin, with removable/replaceable bushings that provide the bearing surface for the hinge.
the photos show a telltale joint line, at the level of the water table - on the left side of the action....various examples provided from the link:

https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=20...BqMagCALACAA&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=ASTS

i close with a polite request that you guys put down the hatchets

best regards,
tom

graybeardtmm3,
Yes, I'm sure that is what the patent is for. As is shown in the photo above, the opening for the barrel lug is not centered. The "hinge pin" is not a common "Pin" at all it is (I believe) an axel (as you described) milled from the action, and is larger, thereby providing a larger wearing surface. I have a couple other Jager single shot tip up rifles that are not the same as this one. If not rare, I think single shots on this patent are uncommon.
Mike

This is a lovely little thread with some very welcome (and also instructive ! ) eye candy. The reason for its continuation here is transparent: from the estate of a recently deceased former gunsmith here, a rather similar gun came into my temporary possession (the legal owner and permit holder still is the widow of the gunsmith, who continues his enterprise with the aims of liquidation; all guns are meanwhile in the vault of another young and very talented gunsmith, who holds them in trust).

The widow wants to sell it, probably for a rather good, i.e. low and advantageous price (compared to the strangely high US price levels, of which we are aware). The export to the USA would be effected not be herself, but through an experienced dealer who is repeatedly and rather easily exporting from here to the US, mostly competition guns (Walther, Hämmerli, Korth, Manurhin) and older hunting guns. I think the gentleman is a US national himself, and he seems to enjoy a good reputation here in our national trade. Any potential sale would give our host Dave his due commission, as stipulated in the forum rules.

This specific gun bears two numbers, namely "4355", which must be the serial number proper (on system, repeated on the left side of the underlug lump, and as "355" inside the forestock), plus the barrel number 3623, barrel maker is "G.G." within a spiked/barbed long oval, and the peculiar apparent (or feigned) patent "D.R.P 3367". It has the very selfsame asymmetrical locking lug / underlug to the left side of the system, with large axle. Opening lever under trigger guard (Roux style).
Has an old detachable scope mounted in decent working condition. Not a claw mount, but proprietary, with fixed bases, good work.

Old nitro proof for 5,3mm with sideways barrel stamp "Crown-N" and 0,5 G.B.P [dividing underscore] St.m.G.

Now the specialty: this one is NOT a single shot, but an over/under (Bockbüchsflintchen, in a fact a typical and charming combined "Schonzeitwaffe") with a choked 28ga shotgun barrel (size stamp 26 to the left).
As to the age of the gun, I decipher 6,4m/m, 524 and 672 under the barrel. I interpret this as May 1924 and ledger number 672, probably Suhl. Remains to be seen whether the barrel once was lined down to the smaller and more precise cartridge (5,6x35R Vierling fits well).

Condition of wood and scope is "good", condition of metal a low good (realistically spoeken, because of former light surface rust). Barrels / bores still remain to be photographed, so I shall not wax poetic.

[PS and contentwise off this thread: there is also a Bockdrilling to sold, in good to very good condition, 9,3x74R, 20/76, 5,6x50R Magnum). But that one is much newer, in better condition, animal scenes engraved (very good style, I would say, definitely several (!) notches above the usual German and Austrian animal pieces, flying turnips and chimerae sadly lacking)... but anyhow who would lust for a Bockdrilling, such a strange wannabe universal contraption ? ;-) :-D Ts, ts... ]

Regards,
Carcano

Interesting enough that Max Ern, Jr. & I discussed some of the Jäger advances, as well as their adaptation and modification just this past Sunday in Atlanta.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

With the data you have proffered us, it would have been passed thru the Zella - Mehlis Proof Facility and more than likely was made by a mechanic in Zella - Mehlis.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thank you, Raimey. The (lack of) engraving, except for thin borderlines, would also be consistent with the cheaper Zella-Mehlis guns.
The provenance of "Gesteckteile" and mechanics (Systemmacher, Rohrschlosser, Baskülierer) and all their touchmarks today still remain very much a mystery... until - finally - the famous and elusive "small black notebook / pocket calendar" of a Mahrholdt or of any "agent" in the two towns would be retrieved from a dusty attic chest of their heirs.
Alas, the potential worth of such is little known to people, and it would probably be scripted in shorthand anyhow - and who today still can read that?!

The barrel maker "G.G. in oval" on the other hand is certainly identifiable.

Carcano

Any fotos?

Also, I guess it would cost about $800 to export & import into the U.S. of A.?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse