doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com New Verney-Carron-Update

I recieved the Verney-Carron single that I mentioned in the previous post and was surprised by several things about the design, which is seldom seen, so thought I would post a few pictures and comments.

The first thing is that the wood is not as light as it seemed. I think the auction photos auto exposed at the level shown due to the dark hide background.





As I suspected the gun has been restored at some point but the work was well done and seemed done to the proper level. I believe the action finish is all original as the plating was the specified finish for this grade. It contains some discoloration and tiny scattered pits but is very nice. The blueing was very well done and only polished to the point of preparing the surface. The sharpness the engraving was crisp everywhere on the gun at the expense of leaving a few pin pits under the bluing. The overall effect is pleasing.





The workmanship and fit was amazing for the type. It locked up perfectly and was completely stable. The action was as smooth as glass. The side release buttons were easy and smooth to operate and opening and closing were incredibly smooth with a light pressure required. A near constant effort was required through the entire cycle. I imagine this is due to the rotary bolt locking system as compared to a Darne type lockup. The safety worked crisply and the trigger was appropriate with a crisp light let off.

The gun was amazingly easy to strip down. Take out the barrel and rear trigger guard screws, remove the barrel, pull the rear of the trigger guard down and forward, pull the rear of the reciever up and forward and the gun is completely broken down for cleaning or maintenance. Separation of the slide, extractor and action is super easy compared to a Darne or Charlin due to the rotating head. Once free of the action you simply close the slide then squeeze the lock buttons while pulling forward on the extractor. The slide and extractor come foward and separate from the action, exposing everything necessary for normal cleaning and lubrication. The slide assembly is pretty tightly enclosed and has no upward facing cuts to admit water and dust. The gun can be field stripped in less than 30 seconds. Reassembly is the reverse and just as easy.





The trigger is actually a form of a self contained dropout design and appears well made. The assembly includes the safety so the only interaction is the sliding block re-cocking the hammer as it passes over.





The inletting is well done and includes a combination outer estuchion and inletting post similar to a mauser rifle to keep the inletting screw pressure tight by eliminating wood compression.



The gun has few proof marks. As I understand them, it has a standard St-Etienne proof. The chamber is 3" and the bore equates to .767. This is a relatively tight 10 gauge bore and exactly matches the measurements I made. The choke I measured at 0.045" of constriction. The barrel has a wall thickness of .120 to .125 9" from the breech. Minimun wall thickness is essentially .095 to .100 all the way down the front half of the barrel. The proof was for type T powder. I am not familiar with the rear proof mark that looks sort of like an X design but I believe it is a supplementary mark that indicates final proof of a gun before assembly. Since the front of the trigger guard has a dovetail into the frame, this would be possible with a simple tube spacer temporarily over the rear guard screw. This may have been the practice to avoid exposing the stock to finish damage.



Second Mark Image


The only potential issue I may address is a crack the ad mentioned behind the tang. It was not very noticeable and I examined the inletting in that area. I found that it had been completely glass bedded in the rear half of the inlet. It looked really will done and looks like the crack had been opened with a jeweler's saw or similar. The small curve was filled with bedding when the entire inner surface was bedded. It looks completely solid and well bonded. Te pressure should now be spread perfectly over the recoil surface. I believe it would be completely serviceable now, but for safety, I may drill a measured depth 1/8: hole at an angle from the other side of the grip and insert a steel pin velow the surface set in epoxy the small hole would be filled and spot finished. That might be preferable to the dange of the stock failing in the future.

Last Image


All in all this is a very impressive gun with a terrific design having only 38 parts total. It is smooth, light and has modern dimensions. One quirk is that this gun, being a waterfowl model, has a rear sighting notch affixed to the breech. It is very similar to a French Galand 10 gauge market gun I own. I happened to notice that the gun appears to point high, similar to a modern trap gun. This may be by design to allow for rising birds when jump shooting or to simply allow for the natural projectile drop at very long range pass shooting. I will need to test fire it to evaluate its patterning. If you find one of these at a good price, it would be well be worth considering.

For some reason I cannot get the last two images to post in the original post, and have not been able to add them successfully. Imgur is doing some strange things I have not seen before. I am posting the second proof image and the ginal image of inletting here for clarity.





The preview works. I hate that I could not get them in the original post. I tried to modify the post to include them 10 or 15 times and was never successful.

Sorry.

Before considering drilling, I would take it to a doctor or dentist friend and x-ray the tang area. Maybe somebody already stabilized the crack with a pin or something and the bedding conceals it. Cool gun.

i continue to be impressed with the unusual designs that crop up among the french guns....and many of which, like this gun, are well thought out and nicely executed. the standard proof mark, with a single crossed fronds, is still a very substantial proof test - equal or superior to any nation's "standard" level of proof.

french guns are always difficult to accurately date, but powder T is fairly certain to indicate post 1900 proofing....and the fact that the chamber measurement is expressed in centimeters, rather than millimeters, was generally thought to put the guns in a time period ending about 1912. however, argo44 has done some ferreting recently that seem to extend cm's usage toward the end of ww1.

the X shaped mark may be the "proofed in the finished state" mark - but it is usually proportioned broader than tall, and looks like two crossed lightening bolts. the mark you show seems to have letters (R?, L?) that are framing the x.

at any rate, another interesting french gun; thanks for the tour.

best regards,

tom

The crossed lightening bolts mark tells us the gun was proofed in a finished state.

Nice gun. If I had a Stopvis, I’d prefer it was a 20 gauge.

Best,
Ted

How does it work? Push tabs, open bolt, drop in shell, close bolt with hand pressure?

Nice gun! The engraving is quite exquisite!

Pretty much just like that.

Best,
Ted

This particular model is a waterfowl gun in 10 gauge and is the only model in that gauge and the only 10 gauge made. I searched around 10 -12 catalogs from 1935 to 1955 and there appear to be no others. It was not in the 1935 catalog, appeared in the 1938 and in no catalogs from 1947 or later. I surmise from that that it appeared after 1935 and must have ceased after 1939 due to the fall of France. Based on this I suspect it was only made for around 3 years. The serial # is 1922, indicating a production of around 2000 since the 1928 introduction. The highest number I could determine on all the listed guns for sale I could locate was in the low 4000's. I suspect that there were likely only 5000 made in it's approximately 40 year run. Of those I suspect the great bulk of those were 12 and 16 ga, being French. They were offered in about everything except, as far as I can determine, .410 bore.

I am still amazed at the smoothness and light action of this gun. The fit is incredible. I have a high grade Manufrance single from around 1929-30 and it is a blacksmith concoction compared to this gun. It.s design is brilliant with less than 40 total parts. Most simple designs are rough and barely functional.This is a minimalist design with almost perfect function and usefullness.

In perusing the Francisque Darne catalogs (these are NOT Darne catalogs, but, a different company) I encountered a version of the lowest grade sliding breech gun, from about the same period, mid to late 1930s that was available in 10 gauge. I have been aware of this for perhaps two decades, and kept my eyes open on websites here, and in Europe, but, have never seen one advertised. I’m not in a hurry to own a 6lb 10 gauge, but, would love to see evidence that they exist.

Best,
Ted

When it comes to guns, the French copy no one, and no one copies the French. The Petrik, however, would seem to be a rare exception. Having been copied by Remington (Model 32) and then by Krieghoff.

Thanks Graybeard; It's chambered in cm 7.5. In this line we tried to use cm chambers as a date marker. The original time period was put at 1889-1912. However, a review of the guns showed this to be erroneous. The last conclusion was that this period extended from 1889 to 1921-22. A definitive final date marker has yet to be firmly established but surely is no later that 1924.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=496567&page=19

Is the 1922 on the barrel a date?

As far as posting pictures on this website, the program does not allow for more than 10 pictures per post. You have to make a second post to add more, or combine several pictures into one.

Can't figure out why my posting time stamp is still set on Moroccan/Mauritanian time?

Gene: have you seen the bottom mark?



The crossed lightning bolts was not used until post-1923



Could it be a V-C date code?

BTW: the single crowned PT indicates standard proof at 850 BAR = 12,328 psi. I assume the 12,090 above is by crushers. The modern CIP max. service pressure would be 780 BAR = 10,733 psi

Good point Dr. Drew, I forgot to take that into account. This certainly narrows the date time for the barrel 1923-1924. Wonder what FAB would say?

You forgot Tikka, Larry.

Best,
Ted

Salut,

Les poinçons du banc d'épreuve de ce fusil sont postérieurs à 1923.
Les éclairs croisés indiquent que ce fusil a été éprouvé en état de livraison.
En 1926, les Etablissements Verney-Carron rachètent un brevet aux Etablissements Faure, pour un fusil à canon fixe et verrouillage de type artillerie. En 1927, il est mis en
production sous la désignation Stopvis.

Merci FAB. Here is a quick translation:

The proof house stamp for this rifle is post-1923. The crossed lightening bolts indicate that the rifle has been proofed in a finished state.

In 1926, the Verney-Carron Company purchased a patent from the Faure Company, for a rifle with a fixed barrel and sliding type locking mechanism. In 1927 it was put into production under the designation "Stopvis."

"1922" is in a totally different font and style from the Saint-Étienne proof mark,

The Saint-Étienne proof mark, the 7.5 cm chamber mark and the 19.5 bore mark appear to be analogous.

The PT proof and the finished gun proof also look similar but may also differ.

This looks to be a barrel made in the early 1920's and proofed by the Saint-Étienne proof house, then reused later and reproofed as a finished gun. But it is really hard to reconcile the stamps.

What do you think? FAB - welcome your observations.

Per an older (2017) copy of the Blue Book, Beretta acquired the import rights for Tikka in 2000. I remember seeing them previously, I think when Stoeger was still importing them. I'm not interested enough in OUs in general to know how much of the original Petrik design was copied by Tikka (outside of the sliding breech hood.)

I just received the latest Cabela's/Bass Pro catalog. Confirmed that Beretta is still importing Tikkas. But not the OUs (assuming they're still being made.)

I believe that what you posted is consistent without the theory of an early barrel. The number 1922 is the serial number. It is stamped on all the major parts. I located around 10 guns listed on various European auction sites and sale houses and they all had 4 digit serial numbers from very low to the mid 4000's. I found previous references for the Stopvis that stated the life of the model was circa 1928 to the early 60's. I collected all of the online V-C catalogs I could locate and purchased a couple of downloads from Cornell press. The earliest was 1935 and the latest was the late 50's. This model (the Canardiere) was only offered in 10 gauge, and only appeared in one available catalog (1939 I believe). It didn't appear in any earlier ones and no postwar ones from 1947 on. I presume production stopped soon after the 1939 catalog due to invasion. This was the only model ever offered in 10 ga. From all this I have to presume the model, and 10 gauge, were only produced a very few years and likely in a very limited number. If you don't make the presumption that the "1922" is a date code instead of a serial number, which I am convinced is not true, I think the markings are totally consistent. My only question about markings was whether the second proof mark meant a finished or unfinished state. The construction of the gun, as opposed to most, would have been very amenable to proofing without the stock.