S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics38,857
Posts550,061
Members14,452
|
Most Online1,344 Apr 29th, 2024
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,592 Likes: 128
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,592 Likes: 128 |
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/dU9JyvT.jpg) Good evening Jon. I’m afraid I must respectfully disagree with you. These ARE magic super guns. Built in America, by Americans, for Americans. The above is my most recent, a 16 gauge Tournament Skeet. The previous owner vetted me before he would sell me the gun. 90 % admirable original condition.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,505 Likes: 346
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,505 Likes: 346 |
I've been looking through the sales sites for more examples of the dovetail joint. Here is a better image. I've found none with the gaps in Dewey's example and suspect his was chosen to confirm his bias ![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Barrel-Evaluations/Winchester/i-qMp9vhV/0/MsT3rtRWpkHKbzprTdGQCfJDDg4GNLZmHjKc5JP9V/L/Model%2021%20dovetail%204-L.jpg)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,072 Likes: 446
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,072 Likes: 446 |
The gap in the deovetail in Dewey's pic is not typical but I have seen several that way.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,454 Likes: 484
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,454 Likes: 484 |
I've been looking through the sales sites for more examples of the dovetail joint. Here is a better image. I've found none with the gaps in Dewey's example and suspect his was chosen to confirm his bias ![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Barrel-Evaluations/Winchester/i-qMp9vhV/0/MsT3rtRWpkHKbzprTdGQCfJDDg4GNLZmHjKc5JP9V/L/Model%2021%20dovetail%204-L.jpg) While this example from the Preacher's vast collection of gun pictures is not quite as bad as Dewey's example, this is hardly a well fitted dovetail joint. Engine turning can draw the eye away from a multitude of sins. This sort of poor metal fitting is more in line with cheap hardware store guns such as Worthington or Crescent rather than what some consider America's Best Gun. Dewey's so-called "bias" is born of his top flight actual experience as an incredibly talented gunsmith... not as a self-styled wannabe internet expert who doesn't know what a chopperlump is. But Dewey spends his days working on all manner of real guns, not pictures of guns. That's when he isn't designing and building high quality guns from scratch. Lots of guns look real nice in pictures. A high grade L.C. Smith looks like perfection, until one is schooled enough to understand its' many weaknesses. The real measure of quality lies in their engineering and mechanics, and in the fit and finish of the best materials. Those are the guns that stand the test of time, and Dewey is in a far better position to be a judge of that overall quality than anyone who merely studies pictures.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,950 Likes: 872
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,950 Likes: 872 |
Drew, With all due respect, if a sleeved gun had a joint that fit like the dovetail at the picture of the front end of those lumps, nobody would buy it. It is sloppy in the extreme. It could have been made to fit perfectly.
It wasn't.
Dewey didn't wake up one day and, off the top of his head, decide he didn't like Winchester 21s.
He got sick of working on junk. He fixed a lot of it when he had to.
Now, he doesn't have to.
Best, Ted
|
1 member likes this:
keith |
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 291 Likes: 11
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 291 Likes: 11 |
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/dU9JyvT.jpg) Good evening Jon. I’m afraid I must respectfully disagree with you. These ARE magic super guns. Built in America, by Americans, for Americans. The above is my most recent, a 16 gauge Tournament Skeet. The previous owner vetted me before he would sell me the gun. 90 % admirable original condition. I'm a M21 guy as well, Bob. I have a 16 gauge skeet similar to yours but built in 1937, a few years after Winchester stopped making the Tournament grade. Mine has 26" barrels and I suspect your gun has the same length of barrels. I don't recall ever seeing a 16 gauge skeet with 28" barrels.
|
1 member likes this:
Bob Cash |
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,513 Likes: 408
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,513 Likes: 408 |
I’ll put my money on Dewey.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,505 Likes: 346
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,505 Likes: 346 |
So in my non-scientific and statistically invalid review of all the auction sites, in which a distinct minority of the M21 listings have high resolution images of the barrel flats, I've yet to find one that looks like the subject barrel or Dewey's. They look like the examples posted and here's another: ![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Barrel-Evaluations/Winchester/i-HZ3W4Qf/0/M4L22XPw7vdxGZLLvHWCtbNFsc3zFbZ8gJqCvQKL2/L/Winchester-Model-21-20-gauge-MINT_102335794_19355_CB94E226CACE7E82-L.jpg) I'm not qualified to discuss the design defects of the M21 but believe inexpert joining of the dovetail joint is found in only few. So the problem could be: 1. sampling error - certainly possible 2. the M21s with breech failures have been trashed or rebarreled 3. cherry picking to make a point
|
1 member likes this:
BrentD, Prof |
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,592 Likes: 128
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,592 Likes: 128 |
I’ll put my money on Dewey. With all due respect to Mr. Vicknair, I’ve bet my money on the Model 21 and be it field or clays, I’ve never been left on the side of the road. I’m almost certain that all of these guns were made by the hand of man. Things sometimes break, we deal with it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,505 Likes: 346
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,505 Likes: 346 |
If Tom is following, possibly he could elaborate? Are the failures separation of the tubes or failure of the dovetail joint? https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=295263&page=6The only dovetail joint on the M21 barrels is in the lump at the breech. The remainder of the barrels from that point forward are joined with soft solder, as are the ribs. The use of soft solder was necessary because the barrels were made of heat treated steel, and the heat of brazing them would have drawn the temper of the steel. I have often heard of M21 barrels separating, but many other guns have suffered the same problem, for whatever reason.
|
|
|
|
|