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Those can’t be real Winchester 21 barrels. We have been assured that Winchester 21 barrels can stand up to any proof test developed by mankind, and are the strongest barrels in the world.

Maybe it is a set of those CSMC barrels. That must be it.

Best,
Ted

Clearly an obtructional burst as evidenced by the ring bulge



The high tensile strength of the barrels, and wall thickness at the point of the obstruction, probably explains the generation of enough pressure to split the chopper lumps before bursting

Wait a minute, it's not Damascus?

Those are dovetail lumps. The Winchester version usually doesn’t look a whole lot better than that out of the box.

Photo lifted from Dewey’s website:


image hosting

Best,
Ted

If they sold the entire gun with those barrels they could probably sell it if they asked a reasonable price.

Winchester marketing verbiage referred to the M21 barrels as being "mechanically interlocked by precision fitting dovetail half lugs on each barrel" and Ted is correct



IMHO Dewey's example however is not the usual fitting

Dewey comes down pretty hard on the model 21:

https://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html

It is what it is, to me, and if a guy wants one or some in his collection, more power to him. Just don’t bother me with how strong and reliable they are. Anyone remember the SXS shoot that had about 6 of them with popped ribs?

Cured me of that notion.

Best,
Ted

Winchester 21 are not magic super guns. Stupid people, doing stupid things can and will break or m ruin them. Even less than stupid things will cause problems. Had a friend who fell in love with 21’s and big beaver tail for ends. Had one put on each of his 21’s. Only problem was he kept having the beaver tail put so much stress on the hanger it would fail. Did this four or five times over three guns before he figured out the beaver tail was causing the issue. His oversized, extra long beaver tail was the real problem. He ended up putting the original for ends back on and later sold them. Problem solved.

Expensive schooling.

Good evening Jon.
I’m afraid I must respectfully disagree with you. These ARE magic super guns. Built in America, by Americans, for Americans.
The above is my most recent, a 16 gauge Tournament Skeet. The previous owner vetted me before he would sell me the gun.
90 % admirable original condition.

I've been looking through the sales sites for more examples of the dovetail joint. Here is a better image.
I've found none with the gaps in Dewey's example and suspect his was chosen to confirm his bias

The gap in the deovetail in Dewey's pic is not typical but I have seen several that way.

While this example from the Preacher's vast collection of gun pictures is not quite as bad as Dewey's example, this is hardly a well fitted dovetail joint. Engine turning can draw the eye away from a multitude of sins.

This sort of poor metal fitting is more in line with cheap hardware store guns such as Worthington or Crescent rather than what some consider America's Best Gun.

Dewey's so-called "bias" is born of his top flight actual experience as an incredibly talented gunsmith... not as a self-styled wannabe internet expert who doesn't know what a chopperlump is. But Dewey spends his days working on all manner of real guns, not pictures of guns. That's when he isn't designing and building high quality guns from scratch. Lots of guns look real nice in pictures. A high grade L.C. Smith looks like perfection, until one is schooled enough to understand its' many weaknesses. The real measure of quality lies in their engineering and mechanics, and in the fit and finish of the best materials. Those are the guns that stand the test of time, and Dewey is in a far better position to be a judge of that overall quality than anyone who merely studies pictures.

Drew,
With all due respect, if a sleeved gun had a joint that fit like the dovetail at the picture of the front end of those lumps, nobody would buy it. It is sloppy in the extreme. It could have been made to fit perfectly.

It wasn't.

Dewey didn't wake up one day and, off the top of his head, decide he didn't like Winchester 21s.

He got sick of working on junk. He fixed a lot of it when he had to.

Now, he doesn't have to.

Best,
Ted

I'm a M21 guy as well, Bob. I have a 16 gauge skeet similar to yours but built in 1937, a few years after Winchester stopped making the Tournament grade.
Mine has 26" barrels and I suspect your gun has the same length of barrels.
I don't recall ever seeing a 16 gauge skeet with 28" barrels.

I’ll put my money on Dewey.

So in my non-scientific and statistically invalid review of all the auction sites, in which a distinct minority of the M21 listings have high resolution images of the barrel flats, I've yet to find one that looks like the subject barrel or Dewey's. They look like the examples posted and here's another:



I'm not qualified to discuss the design defects of the M21 but believe inexpert joining of the dovetail joint is found in only few. So the problem could be:
1. sampling error - certainly possible
2. the M21s with breech failures have been trashed or rebarreled
3. cherry picking to make a point

With all due respect to Mr. Vicknair,
I’ve bet my money on the Model 21 and be it field or clays, I’ve never been left on the side of the road.

I’m almost certain that all of these guns were made by the hand of man.
Things sometimes break, we deal with it.

If Tom is following, possibly he could elaborate? Are the failures separation of the tubes or failure of the dovetail joint?
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=295263&page=6
The only dovetail joint on the M21 barrels is in the lump at the breech. The remainder of the barrels from that point forward are joined with soft solder, as are the ribs. The use of soft solder was necessary because the barrels were made of heat treated steel, and the heat of brazing them would have drawn the temper of the steel. I have often heard of M21 barrels separating, but many other guns have suffered the same problem, for whatever reason.

Embarrassingly, the above may soon be untrue.
Tournament 12 gauge


Things sometimes break, we deal with it.

This follow-up I submitted yesterday, to the repeated attempt to upstage Dewey Vicknair, must have gotten lost or something. So I'll try again. The new example pictured above is a bit better, and is beginning to approach Crescent Gun Co. metal fitting and finishing quality. However, if you are going to accuse Dewey of negative cherry picking, you should at least choose some nice cherries as examples.

I don't recall ever seeing a Crescent, N.R. Davis, Worthington, or any other cheap double with a screw slot as far off-center as the set screw on the left. The screw slot in the previous photo looks like it was cut with a hack saw. Screws on field grade Baikals look better. Cheap Chinese toys from the Nixon era had nicer screws. And look at the difference in the length of those ejectors! The peened ends suggest poor quality steel or a need for heat treatment.

If I made a gun screw like that and posted a picture of it here, I would be laughed off this forum, and rightfully so. I'd have my Liberal Gal Fan Club here saving it, and reposting it for all time to mock me. It is remarkable that anyone would post that image as an example of fine gun craftsmanship. I might also give that a "Like"... if I was a know-it-all who knows very little.

Stick to what you're good at... even if little more than collecting pictures and old advertisements. Leave the gun critiques to someone who actually has skill, extensive hands-on shotgun knowledge, and a discerning eye.

Happens to the best of ‘em. Happens to the alleged best of ‘em, more.

Best,
Ted

I have nothing against people who like or think the M21 is some sort of magic gun. I don't care for them personally. I think a quality English gun puts them to shame. I would rather shoot a Parker or Lefever when I choose the Americana type. I know quite a few people from various gun clubs who own M21's and they can't hit the broad side of a barn with one. I verified this as I couldn't hit the same barn with their guns either! I average 98 at skeet with modern and most sxs guns in a 12 gauge. Gun fit was not the issue either. I can only deduce from my limited experience with them that they were either poorly regulated or the shooting gods were against me. The 21 might be the only gun I can't shoot proficiently with. I guess that is why I don't have one in my collection. Sa la vie.

Dewey's site again
https://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html

This is the full size image enhanced and rotated to get the SN which looks like 8685 which would be about 1935
The screws and barrel stop have been removed and the lumps have been separated; there is obviously no solder.



Click on Dewey's brief video and he moves the 2 lumps back & forth demonstrating the dovetail adds little to the strength of the lump.

There may be changes in the quality of the joining over time. Estimated DOM are per Schwing's SN listing.

1934 looks good



1947



1949



1951 with a significant gap filled with solder



The previously posted 1954

1933 catalog. Be patient; it takes a moment to download
https://dspace.nplg.gov.ge/bitstream/1234/83515/1/Winchester_Model_21.pdf



More here
https://bluepike.tripod.com/Model21/21catalogs.htm

Advertising, Drew. You can say anything you want:


posted image


Then, in the future, when everyone involved is dead, you don’t have to listen to the laughter.

Best,
Ted

20 pages of entertainment, including thoughts on the CSMC M21
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=508999&page=all

I found a thread from 2007 with Ted, Bill and JIMMY (!) debating the hanger issues
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=57087

and another heartbreak
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=453348&page=all

Beautiful!! Like I always said: The ONLY gun that the good Lord put his whole heart and soul into!

Such a pretty gun. Nice dimensions. The black walnut is so iconic with winchesters

Looks like the angle of the dovetail cuts varied between guns and vastly from what is shown in the advert which is shown as 45 degrees.

Found another gun from the 30s. Schwing doesn't have any SNs with DOM close.
Interesting Tournament Skeet 16g