doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com WIN21 People tend to like this type of discussion

Embarrassingly, the above may soon be untrue.
Tournament 12 gauge


Things sometimes break, we deal with it.

This follow-up I submitted yesterday, to the repeated attempt to upstage Dewey Vicknair, must have gotten lost or something. So I'll try again. The new example pictured above is a bit better, and is beginning to approach Crescent Gun Co. metal fitting and finishing quality. However, if you are going to accuse Dewey of negative cherry picking, you should at least choose some nice cherries as examples.

I don't recall ever seeing a Crescent, N.R. Davis, Worthington, or any other cheap double with a screw slot as far off-center as the set screw on the left. The screw slot in the previous photo looks like it was cut with a hack saw. Screws on field grade Baikals look better. Cheap Chinese toys from the Nixon era had nicer screws. And look at the difference in the length of those ejectors! The peened ends suggest poor quality steel or a need for heat treatment.

If I made a gun screw like that and posted a picture of it here, I would be laughed off this forum, and rightfully so. I'd have my Liberal Gal Fan Club here saving it, and reposting it for all time to mock me. It is remarkable that anyone would post that image as an example of fine gun craftsmanship. I might also give that a "Like"... if I was a know-it-all who knows very little.

Stick to what you're good at... even if little more than collecting pictures and old advertisements. Leave the gun critiques to someone who actually has skill, extensive hands-on shotgun knowledge, and a discerning eye.

Happens to the best of ‘em. Happens to the alleged best of ‘em, more.

Best,
Ted

I have nothing against people who like or think the M21 is some sort of magic gun. I don't care for them personally. I think a quality English gun puts them to shame. I would rather shoot a Parker or Lefever when I choose the Americana type. I know quite a few people from various gun clubs who own M21's and they can't hit the broad side of a barn with one. I verified this as I couldn't hit the same barn with their guns either! I average 98 at skeet with modern and most sxs guns in a 12 gauge. Gun fit was not the issue either. I can only deduce from my limited experience with them that they were either poorly regulated or the shooting gods were against me. The 21 might be the only gun I can't shoot proficiently with. I guess that is why I don't have one in my collection. Sa la vie.

Dewey's site again
https://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html

This is the full size image enhanced and rotated to get the SN which looks like 8685 which would be about 1935
The screws and barrel stop have been removed and the lumps have been separated; there is obviously no solder.



Click on Dewey's brief video and he moves the 2 lumps back & forth demonstrating the dovetail adds little to the strength of the lump.

There may be changes in the quality of the joining over time. Estimated DOM are per Schwing's SN listing.

1934 looks good



1947



1949



1951 with a significant gap filled with solder



The previously posted 1954

1933 catalog. Be patient; it takes a moment to download
https://dspace.nplg.gov.ge/bitstream/1234/83515/1/Winchester_Model_21.pdf



More here
https://bluepike.tripod.com/Model21/21catalogs.htm

Advertising, Drew. You can say anything you want:


posted image


Then, in the future, when everyone involved is dead, you don’t have to listen to the laughter.

Best,
Ted

20 pages of entertainment, including thoughts on the CSMC M21
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=508999&page=all

I found a thread from 2007 with Ted, Bill and JIMMY (!) debating the hanger issues
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=57087

and another heartbreak
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=453348&page=all