doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Steel Barrels on a Reilly in 1876??

Houllier Blanchard
7554.1864

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=313605&page=8


>>Germain Leopold Bertrand Bernard
Barrel and gun maker
was born in Versailles on 11/13/1808.
(The November could a bunch of other things such as October.)
Was elevated to the rank of officer of the Legion of Honor on 6/30/1867.
Passed on 7/11/1870.<<

http://www2.culture.gouv.fr/LH/LH015/PG/FRDAFAN83_OL0196005v001.htm

This Houllier Blanchard from 1864 looks to have fluid steel???

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>t turns out that the overwhelming majority (read all) of US guns with barrels described as "Bernard" were not made by Leopold Bernard. One could order "Bernard" style barrels from the Belgian trade and that's where all those barrels came from. Your Sauer is similar, I am certain.
LB had a touchmark that he used from the 1840s until the end of the company in the early 1900s. Those barrels also had the serial number and date or date code on the lower rib.That is well documented in previous threads. If yours does not have it, by definition it is not a true Bernard.
LB was an ultra-premium barrel maker for most of his carrier including after his death in the 1870s. Barrel sets produced were very few for many decades of production. I think annual production was around 500 per year.
Many barrel makers copied the style of his touch mark including an E. Bernard from Belgium, who produced tons of fake L Bernards.<<

Quote by WC that for the most part says if any barrel maker was using Fluid Steel in the 1860s, L. Bernard just had to be...

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Not enamored of that new fangled steel stuff, but found this
https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyarmaments/rifles/sniderhistory.htm
"As early as 4 March 1867, the Superintendent of the Royal Small Arms Factory had reported very favorably on five-grooved steel barrels in conjunction with the Snider breech. All barrels of the new pattern Sniders were stamped STEEL on the left-hand side, just below the backsight..."
Could not find the composition of that steel though it was likely open hearth 'mild steel' (AISI 1008 - 1020) invented by Siemens about 1860

I found a statement that the 1862 Snider Enfield barrels were wrought iron.

Great Find Hause. You know you are a Closet New Fangled Fluid Steel Fanatic...... Embrace your Demons.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rs

Let me post the edited Reilly chapter on steel barrels. I'm mainly interested in Reilly but need to put the subject into context. I used both Raimey and Dr. Drew as background info. This doesn't have to be a treatise on steel barrels but would like some feedback on viability:

*76 1882: Reilly and Steel Barrels

Decarbonized steel was used for making barrels as early as the mid 1800’s but suffered from quality and durability. However, in the mid 1860’s there were three almost simulataeous improvements in steel which untimately translated into commercial sporting gun barrels.

. .-- in 1865 Whitworth took out a patent for “Compressed Steel,” a new way of making high carbon steel. It was revolutionary. But because of price (and possibly consumer resistance) it was not integrated into sporting guns until around 1875 when William Powel & Sons used it for a few barrels. It was popularized when Purdey produced a matched pair of shotguns with whitworth barrels delivered in January 1880. Whitworth steel became so esteemed that the patent was extended in 1879 for four years *76a and after it expired, gun makers continued to put the Whitworth grain-sheaf stamp on their barrels as a sign of quality.

. .-- in 1866 Deakin & Johnson were making weldless rifle barrels from a steel block which was bored, rolled, stretched and annealed over and over again, an arduous process. Powell had customers asking for these barrels as early as 1866. However Greener in his 1881 book “the Gun” confirmed that the procedure was long and expensive and that the firm making these barrels finally ceased trading in 1875. *76b

. .-- and in 1865 William Siemens set up “Sample Steelworks” to use the Seimens-Martin “Open Hearth” process. Again Powell had customers in 1872 requesting "Bessemer steel" barrels. Seimens steel was in general use by 1875. Webley began using Siemen’s steel barrels around 1880.*76c

Note: By 1869 Arsenal began producing Snider-Enfields with steel barrels after the selected portion of Iron barreled Enfield rifle-muskets had been converted (Chapter IX: 51. 1866-1890’s: Reilly Builds Civilian Snider-Enfields). What type of steel was used in these barrels seems difficult to pin-down.

There are not many UK extant sporting guns from the early-mid 1870’s with original steel barrels. However Reilly by 1876 was making special-ordered steel barreled guns possibly influenced by William Powell. Reilly always wanted to be seen as open to new technologies.

The two extant 1876 Reilly guns with steel barrels are both .500 SxS BPE rifles. Both are extrordinarially well made and obviously expensive, top of the line. Who made these barrels and by what process is not known though one assumes these likely would be Seimens process barrels. (No specfic Reilly advertisement for steel barreled rifles have been found from that time period but he did advertise throughout the 1870’s that his guns used all the most up-to-date technologies).

. . . . .SN 19953 (1876): - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London. 500 BPE. Rifle SxS. U-L hammer gun, steel 28” barrels. Round back-action lock. *76d



. . . . .SN 20764(1876): - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502, New Oxford Street, London & rue Scribe, Paris. 500 BPE. Rifle SxS. U-L hammer gun, steel 28” barrels. The barrels have a stamp “S.SM” which possibly could refer to Samuel Smith, who with his brother Charles were located in the mid-1870’s at 18, Oxenden street, Birmingham. *76e



The standard for steel barrels ultimately seems to have became Whitworth steel. In January 1882 Reilly for the first time advertised guns specifically equipped with Whitworth compressed fluid steel barrels. (The extended Whitworth patent expired in 1883 as mentioned, but the Whitworth “Grain Sheaf” trademark stamp was still placed by gun makers as a mark of quality.

. . . . .First Reilly advertisement for Whitworth compressed steel barrels; Reilly 1886 16 bore with the Whitworth grain sheaf trademark stamp *76f



Note: This advertisement is important for three more reasons - It has the old and new addresses for both Reilly workshops (the numbers changed in early November 1881) and it mentions Reilly selling ready-made "off the rack" guns or by custom fitting. In 1881 Reilly first announced he was selling ready-made guns; his serial numbered guns total topped 1000 guns in 1882 (Chapter Xi, 69). It also illustrates Reilly's sole distributorship of Sharpes Rifles in UK.

The first known Reilly shotgun with “Compressed Steel barrels” (per the advertisement), which are presumably Whitworth since no one else had “compressed steel,” is the above pictured December 1881 Cyril Adams pigeon gun:

. . . . .SN23574 (Dec 1881): - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). 12 bore; Shotgun SxS; S-L, Pigeon gun, third bite, hammer gun. Side clips; Flat file cut rib; low profile hammers; 31" "Compressed Steel" barrels; 8 lbs. (Cyril Adams) *75g.



The first Reilly steel barreled gun, which actually pictures the “wheat sheaf” Whitworth trademark, is another pigeon gun from above SN 24365:

. . . . .SN 24365 (Sep 1882): - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). Shotgun SxS, 12 bore, top lever; Side clips; Flat file cut rib; low profile hammers; 31" Whitworth steel barrels, pigeon gun. 7 lbs. 8 oz.*76h



As late as 1888 WW Greener in his book Modern Shotguns stated that Whitworth Steel barrels were not as strong as high-quality Damascus. Reilly for his part continued to use Damascus for the majority of his barrels up to the early 1900's. By that time the Damascus blanks came from Liege.

Looks good Gene.
A bit more on new fangled rifle barrels from The Gun and Its Development: With Notes on Shooting, 1881
http://books.google.com/books?id=LAsAAAAAQAAJ

GUN-MAKING—HISTORY AND DESCRIPTION.
“Gun-barrels”
In the earliest firearms the barrels were made of plain iron, usually from one strip, which was bent, whilst hot, round a mandril, and the two edges welded together. Later on two pieces were used, one for the breech-end of the barrel, the other for the fore-end, or muzzle-piece. In some old blunderbusses the breech-piece is of iron or steel, and the muzzle-piece of brass or bell-metal. Plain iron barrels were drawn as early as 1808, when one Benjamin Cook patented an invention for making barrels for fowling-pieces, muskets, &c. His plan was to roll a block of iron or steel, and drill a hole through it: a mandril was placed in this hole, and the bar drawn, whilst red hot, between rolls with taper grooves into a barrel of the required length. The breech-end of the barrel was first formed, the roller watching his opportunity, and inserting the bar of iron when the broad section of the groove presented itself. This plan is the one now in use for Bessemer steel rifle barrels and decarbonised steel shot barrels; but the hole now is punched through the bar or block of metal, and afterwards gradually drawn out upon a mandril. By this principle a barrel is obtained without a single weld in it, and a material saving thereby effected. This plan of rolling was discontinued after a few years; the method adopted in its stead was to roll the barrel out of a short strip of iron, which was turned round a mandril and drawn through rolls, the edges being welded whilst passing between the rolls; this mandril is only used to start the barrels, and is not drawn through the rolls. This plan was used for several years, all the military barrels being made this way, the weld running straight along the barrel on the under-side. It has since been discontinued for all but the very common barrels, the rollers having reverted to the plan first described. In the patent of Benjamin Cook there is also a plan for rolling rifle barrels with the grooves in. To accomplish this the barrels are rolled or drawn with fluted bars inside them; the barrels receive grooves from the flutes of the bars, and are to be afterwards twisted until they have the required amount of spiral. All plain-drawn barrels have the fibre running straight along the barrel, not round.
This is certainly the best for all barrels that are intended for rifling, for, although the plain iron or steel will not stand so great a strain as the twisted metal, yet in rifle barrels there is generally a large body of metal required in the barrel to counterbalance the recoil, so that they very seldom give way, and may be advantageously used for such purposes, as the spiral grooving does not cut across the grain of the iron, whereas in a twist barrel the grooves run in a transverse direction to the fibres of the metal.
For shot barrels plain metal is altogether unsuitable, there not being sufficient thickness of it to obtain the strength necessary to withstand the strain of the explosion.
The “solid fluid compressed steel” barrel, as made by Sir J. Whitworth, withstands heavy charges better than any plain metal barrel now used; but they are very expensive, and not well liked, for they, in common with other plain metal barrels, show no figure whatever when finished, but resemble in appearance a musket barrel. Gentlemen are unable to tell whether they possess a genuine “fluid steel barrel” or whether the gunmaker has used instead (at one-third the cost) a common steel barrel; whereas with a twist barrel the sportsman can easily tell the quality of his barrel by the fineness of the figure.
For this reason the plain iron barrels will never become popular for best shotguns whilst good laminated steel or Damascus barrels can be obtained.

Greener patented his own “Greener's Solid Weldless-Twist Barrel” about 1880
http://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ&pg=P238&source


This quote "As late as 1888 WW Greener in his book Modern Shotguns stated that Whitworth Steel barrels were not as strong as high-quality Damascus." needs to be interpreted in light of Greener's self-promotion, and his own "Silver Steel"
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hph1QPAVDHd_KvHLrejKVykigwGgvMLFl4K6Ru6Dcig/edit
In 1893, Whitworth's “No. 1 Red Gun Barrel Steel” was reported to have a tensile strength of 66,000 - 67,200 psi - more than damascus and similar to "cold-rolled" Decarbonized steel (Winchester's Standard Ordnance steel)


Krupp Fluss Stahl (Homogeneous Fluid Steel) was introduced about 1890 and by composition was similar to AISI 1045 with a standard tensile strength of 85,000 psi

Interesting advertisement in 1896 for Greener’s Wrought Steel “Indestructible by Gunpowder”. I don't know the process or composition. It was not part of the 1891 Proof House Trial report, but Whitworth's and several other English steels were
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit



The Gun and Its Development, 8th Edition, 1907 he appears to have joined the fluid compressed steel fan club.
http://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ
Owing to the great difficulty in procuring perfectly welded barrels, gun-makers are now discarding tubes of the Damascus variety for those of solid steel which are free from greys and blemishes, and if carefully chosen and tested will fill every requirement of the sportsman; in fact, guns of every quality, from the cheapest to the best, are being fitted with barrels made from one or another of the numerous brands of steel available. The harder the Damascus barrel the greater the liability to “greys,” and a soft barrel will not make a fine shooting gun. Of the steels used for shotgun barrels, the best known is Whitworth's fluid compressed steel.
This is a cast steel; the ingot whilst in a liquid or a semi-liquid state is submitted to pressure, with a view to eliminating blow-holes. The top and bottom of the ingot is cut off and thrown aside as usual. Eminent metallurgists contend that in the process of cooling the contraction of the ingot is so great that no pressure which can be brought to act upon it by mechanical means can affect the metal — at any rate, beyond a few inches from the surface. The process is therefore by some regarded as quite superfluous. On the other hand, it is generally allowed that the Whitworth steel is of excellent quality, and it has been used for barrels for so many years that its suitability for that purpose may be taken as fully proven.

very good find as it explains/reflects the opinion of the period:

>>The “solid fluid compressed steel” barrel, as made by Sir J. Whitworth, withstands heavy charges better than any plain metal barrel now used; but they are very expensive, and not well liked, for they, in common with other plain metal barrels, show no figure whatever when finished, but resemble in appearance a musket barrel. Gentlemen are unable to tell whether they possess a genuine “fluid steel barrel” or whether the gunmaker has used instead (at one-third the cost) a common steel barrel; whereas with a twist barrel the sportsman can easily tell the quality of his barrel by the fineness of the figure.
For this reason the plain iron barrels will never become popular for best shotguns whilst good laminated steel or Damascus barrels can be obtained.<<

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, speaking for Hause, we are referring to Scattergun tubes as Argo44's concentration is rifled tubes. As mentioned above, rifled barrels have a thickness that for the most part offsets most concerns.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Interesting advertisement in 1896 for Greener’s Wrought Steel “Indestructible by Gunpowder”. I don't know the process or composition. It was not part of the 1891 Proof House Trial report, but Whitworth's and several other English steels were
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cvqRzkg0wEjhAAcFWr8gFi7aPFRsSIJ_hahfDxmrNAU/edit



The Gun and Its Development, 8th Edition, 1907 he appears to have joined the fluid compressed steel fan club.
http://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ
Owing to the great difficulty in procuring perfectly welded barrels, gun-makers are now discarding tubes of the Damascus variety for those of solid steel which are free from greys and blemishes, and if carefully chosen and tested will fill every requirement of the sportsman; in fact, guns of every quality, from the cheapest to the best, are being fitted with barrels made from one or another of the numerous brands of steel available. The harder the Damascus barrel the greater the liability to “greys,” and a soft barrel will not make a fine shooting gun. Of the steels used for shotgun barrels, the best known is Whitworth's fluid compressed steel.
This is a cast steel; the ingot whilst in a liquid or a semi-liquid state is submitted to pressure, with a view to eliminating blow-holes. The top and bottom of the ingot is cut off and thrown aside as usual. Eminent metallurgists contend that in the process of cooling the contraction of the ingot is so great that no pressure which can be brought to act upon it by mechanical means can affect the metal — at any rate, beyond a few inches from the surface. The process is therefore by some regarded as quite superfluous. On the other hand, it is generally allowed that the Whitworth steel is of excellent quality, and it has been used for barrels for so many years that its suitability for that purpose may be taken as fully proven.[/quote]


amongst my holdings, i have an orphaned set of greener's wrought steel barrels, always been a bit curious, but there's not a lot of information regarding them....40,000 serial number range puts them in 1896 or so.

best regards,

tom

Chop off about 4" Tom and I'll take the sample over to METL for composition analysis and tensile testing
And maybe someone could send me a chunk of Whitworth's also