doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1900 L. Bernard fluid steel barrel?

Bought a Gastinne Renette 16 Gauge with these 1900ish Leopold Bernard fluid steel barrels. Are they stronger than his Damascus?
Any idea what they may be proofed for?
Thanks in advance

If I’m seeing it correctly, that is actually a 15 gauge. I can’t see the other marks clearly enough to read them. It almost looks like Manufrance barrel flats, they proofed their own guns for a period of time.

Best,
Ted

Unfortunately the photos of the barrel flats are too blurry to interpret. I tried blowing them up. Could you please post another photo? Can't see if there is a Paris proof on them (which may or may not have been there). Thanks.

Edit: The barrels are definitely Belgian/Liege.

When it comes in I will post better photos.Always loved their doubles, this one is 16 with dual sears. Looks to be a Francotte type 1 action, with the GR forend lever(love their’s, more refined version of a Scott)


I will have it completely restored, cch , wood, checkering.
My first French gun ( yes much sourced from Belgium.)

No, the tubes are Léopold Bernard & the Roving Bovine had a last number @ 35321 but this one wears what looks to be 36293?? Which may extend the Bernard Barrel Calculus?

>>.....described as "Bernard" were not made by Leopold Bernard. One could order "Bernard" style barrels from the Belgian trade and that's where all those barrels came from. Your Sauer is similar, I am certain.
LB had a touchmark that he used from the 1840s until the end of the company in the early 1900s. Those barrels also had the serial number and date or date code on the lower rib.That is well documented in previous threads. If yours does not have it, by definition it is not a true Bernard.
LB was an ultra-premium barrel maker for most of his carrier including after his death in the 1870s. Barrel sets produced were very few for many decades of production. I think annual production was around 500 per year.
Many barrel makers copied the style of his touch mark including an E. Bernard from Belgium, who produced tons of fake L Bernards.
It does not really matter anyhow. <<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=316542&page=7

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Leopold died in 1870 but his company continued to manufacture barrels.
There are pre-WW I doubles with the LB mark and also Whitworth steel marks. It is not known if a Belgian barrel maker acquired the Leopold Bernard trademark after the company ceased operation in 1890 but it appears likely. There were a number of Liege "Bernards"
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fMs-Mn60ei9QsRcHT5Urm_eHobzJnaDKZiP3FP0fXb0/edit?tab=t.0

More information here
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=313605&page=1

The gun dates to 1910-1921 (I don't see a lettre annale and it's probably pre-WWI) but there should be a chamber gauge mark within a diamond on the flats
Ted is correct. 17.2 mm = .677" = 15 gauge. The L barrel muzzle constriction is 16.2 = .638" so choke is .039"
The marks closest to the breech may be the maker's mark

The pre-1924 16g standard service load was about 1 oz. with 2 3/4 Dram Eq. (1220 fps). Loads of that period ran about 8500 psi
After 1924 the max. service pressure was 600 kg/cm2 = 8534 psi + 10 - 14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement

I can say with confidence that the barrels were of quality fluid steel; likely by Cockerill and likely Siemens - Martin open hearth process. Pre-WWI Siemens were similar to AISI 1021 - 1034 Carbon Steels. I've analyzed a sample of Pieper Eclipse “Hercules Compressed Steel” (Pieper only used Cockerill) and it was non-standard 1030 with a tensile strength of almost 100,000 psi
Manufacture d’Armes à Feu Liégeoise and Fabrique-Nationale-Herstal also used Cockerill steel. At some point Krupp must have licensed Cockerill Sambre, as Fluss Stahl Krupp Essen marked tubes stamped with “Acier Cockerill” have been documented.

Please post high resolution close up images of every mark on the barrels and flats when you get the gun.

With all the Sauer & Krupp trademarks filed in Belgium, Krupp had to have licensed a Belgian compagnie.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>....ased on my Rieger Lefaucheux built in 1898,
35321/(1898-1832)=535 per year in average over 66 years.
One could plot a curve with the data we have.
That's in the same ball park (but bigger) that Purdey by the way, so ultra-premium is appropriate.<<<
Posted to bring the Bernard Barrel Calculus forward....


The last Bernard Barrel Calculus..... Too, his tubes were >>Ultra-Premium<< and was copied by one & all tube-makers. Any Francophile hazard a guess on the phrase >>Ultra-Premium<< in French/Française?

Maybe the Gallopin' Bovine will pass by???

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Great project. I look forward to seeing the finished work.

But of course the tubeset could have been cobbled together in 1899 & the set lonely until WWI?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

It sure looks like Francotte was supplying GR with a partiality finished action and barrels?

Too, I wonder if the standing breech wears an APUN for the A&D Body Action, Belts & Braces?

I wouldn't say Francotte supplied or sourced the tubes, but Francotte was a major player on the world stage of sporting arms. What I would say is that G-R supplied the tubes that had been set back a decade earlier and maybe a few other parts, just short of a Gesteck(parts kit) & commissioned Francotte to cobble it all together for them. No doubt the sporting platform was assembled and pass thru the Liège Proof Facility, but the sporting platform is pretty much a continental version mainly under the French Speaking Mechanic Banner.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

If the number on the lower rib is 36k, then that will extend the Léopold Bernard tube making by his wife a couple more years into the 1900s.... I do wonder what her quality control(QA/QC) might have been???


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Gene: the Perron just indicates Banc d’Epreuves de Liege
There were 3 provings and the Perron could be applied each time, but typically just at the 3rd proof:

First Obligatory (Provisional) Proof Load for “Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns” - breech plugged tubes
Marked with Script EL AND a controller’s identification mark.

Second Obligatory Proof - joined barrels, fine bored and finished.
Controller's mark

Third Obligatory (Definitive) Proof - finished barrels attached to finished action.
ELG mark in an oval; crowned after 1893 (for breechloading guns) AND a controller’s identification mark.

The Francotte version of this gun has shown up several times at 4 times what I paid for this one and those were 12s. Wood will be pretty nice after refinish also.

Hope she helps you fellows with Your Leopold Bernard data.

If you will keep purchasing sporting gun platforms with Bernard tubes, we will eventually figure it out.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Funny I won the Guyot minutes after you posted this last one above. I feel pretty lucky today!

Here are better pics of barrel flats. Bores still measure .675 and chokes are .012 .038 and are pit free. Chambers measure 65mm

This one will be very nice after restoration of wood and metal finish. Still tight and functional.

Look @ Francotte's mark @ the bottom... He was the one who toted it thru the Liège Proof Facility. Can you post a better photo of the stamp of the square below the Perron? Francotte was the one who cobbled it all together.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I read that this mark is to signify any french gun not made in St. E. I thought it was Francottes mark also but read differently? Square has 16c and measures such.

No, it is just the gauge stamp of a Rhombus being a Belgian gauge mark. I am just used to seeing the Oval version....

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

The A F is what I was speaking of.
I read that this mark is to signify any french gun not made in St. E. I thought it was Francottes mark also but read differently?

No, no, no.... that mark isn't >>AR. ETR<< or >>ARME ENTRANGERRE<< but rather Auguste Francotte's Trademark.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

There aren't any French Proofmarks on the longarm, unless you stretch it a bit saying that Bernard was the Paris Proof Facility & his marks would be French Proofmarks.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Sources give Bernard was rolling about 2000 tubes per year.

In 1885 France abolished the need for Proof and was established again on July 30th, 1897. The Paris facility wasn't formed until November 7th, 1895 and France didn't sign on to the International Proof Conference until 1914, which was disrupted by the 1st Major Disagreement in Europe. I think it was 1923 before they convened again?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Great I have no problem with Francotte.
Barrels on this gun measure roughly .060 thick 9 inches out. I check with vinegar after that measurement but they are definitely fluid steel. With its 15” lop and 7/8” extension (will be removed and horn butt installed) 29.5” barrels it weighs 6.25lbs.
Will be a wonderful dove gun. Very happy with this one! Hope the guyot comes in with same luck!

I would say that G-R sent the Bernard tubeset to Auguste Francotte & he did the heavy lifting. Remember Francotte looks to be the Anson & Deeley Body Action APUN Satellite Stamping Station and he would have actions......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I would like to know about the adornment; is it Belgian, typical A&F, or French?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

That forend fastener sort of throws me. I don't think I've seen such on a Francotte offering prior??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

No signature in engraving. Monogram look french but I have seen plenty of francottes with these fences.

I don’t recall seeing scroll in the chiseled fences though. Possible a french engraver did the gun and old Francotte had fences just chiseled. Also forend latch is French.

I would like to thank you all for your help and information. What a wonderful group of informative gentleman we have here. Truly amazing!

Salut,



Ce poinçon nous indique que cette arme a été fabriquée en France, ailleurs qu'à Saint-Étienne.

So, which came 1st the chicken or the egg? The platform wears a full regiment of Belgian stamps & one odd non-Saint Étienne French stamp?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Auguste Francotte had a very similar stamp, but with a Crown I guess. But the position is that of Franctotte's Trademark, but I am open to discussion.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

An older Gastinne Renette
https://www.littlegun.info/arme%20f...%20i%20j/a%20gastinne%20renette%20gb.htm



The upper mark is different from the upper mark on the subject gun

But let's sum it up from the Belgian marks. It has the preliminary stamp & it has the Perron, which denotes proofed in the final state. Now I realize that the lower AF stamp doesn't have a crown but, but had the longarm platform been made in Paris, why then would it wear the full regiment of Belgian proofmarks? If anything, it should be the AE French stamp that notes it was made outside France. Now I have viewed countless Auguste Francotte stamps and there really isn't a consensus but they all have a Crown. So the question that begs is why would a longarm platform wear the full regiment of Belgian proofmarks and also wear the mark of being made in Paris, or not in St. Etienne, a mark which the Paris retailers requested.

Does the longarm wear Francotte's name on the top rib or anywhere?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

But it is not a GR made gun but a Bernard Tubeset with his trademark & royal appointment/medal stamp above.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Well, maybe it is a repurposed Bernard tubeset from a Paris made gun that Francotte used for another platform?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Nope only Gastinne Renette A Paris. Im guessing L. Bernard was owned and barrels built in Belgium and A.F. sent action and barrels to G.R. where gun was stocked with their signature forend and engraved(finished). Or the same fellows that own L. Bernard in Belgium supplied action and barrels to G.R.

Nah, L. Bernard rolled all his tube in Paris & had the proofhouse under his umbrella @ one time. Now E. Bernard is another story & a Belgian Copy Cat one......

But some maker in Liège cobbled this together & toted it thru the Liège Proof Facility.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

In Argo's image, that Perron near the centre is a stamp noting a stage of completion plus the choke effort in the tubes was established by a mechanic in Liège at about the same time. Had the longarm platfrom been fabricated elsewhere, then the longarm would not wear any stage of completion marks. Also, the water-table is pretty much devoid of marks less the single Belgian. I will dig & study a bit more.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Another Renette with Belgian proof marks and no lettre annale.
Unfortunately no image of the marks forward of the barrel flats
NON POUR BALLE was used 1878 - 1897 if choked > .008"
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/gastinne-renette-info.81817/

Another with LB barrels but only French proof marks
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=434532&page=all

Well 48 out of quick 50 today with old Leopolds barrels, this thing ain’t going no where! Guess she stays at 15” lop don’t know how but it just worked. Triggers are a bit more heavy than I use( probably 4.5 and 5)but they really do break like glass.

Just in case anyone missed it, these have a capital L after the Bernard number. So are we saying 1902ish barrels on a 1910ish gun?

Well, you should shoot it well as it is the best of all worlds: Bernard Tubes, A&D Body Action w/ Belts & Braces, if everything is real. Odd that the lower assemblies are pins and the top are screws. Belgian mechanics preferred Pins.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Yes, apparently for >>L<< the datecode would be 1902, but we have very little sampling data. And there doesn't seem to be a G-R serial number associated with it.


Too, the Galloping Bovine gives the forend release to be called „evant a pedale“.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Hause for diggin' on this....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>......and it is interesting to see that only 17 Serial numbers were taken in 7 years...
At that time, the very bulk of the GR sales were with Belgian and St Etienne made guns, ....<<

WC on GR retailed guns...

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Here is one of those 12ga dual sear francottes with screws vs pins. 2000.00

How do the frame match up as well as measure?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I have seen a 20ga francotte with frame like mine and Damascus barrels same pins and screws. I don’t own any others but always loved the 16 ga Belgium knockabouts. I’m sticking with this one and hopefully will get lucky and the Guyot will be sound to resurrect. The 12 above has a bolstered frame some earlier sub gauges don’t.

But what is you length of frame?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks to Wolfgang, looks like Pieper was peddling some frame with upper & lower pins/screws circa 1901.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Nice even offers Bernard barrels on advertising. Very possible

I didn't think anyone would catch that.....

Interesting text on traps >>General-Vertretung der Haynauer Raubtierfallen-Fabrik.<<. I don't know that I have seen trap maker advertised¿¿¿

Serbis,

Rainey
rse

Other L Bernard set from Guyot

Now this Pieper platform does have Lower Pins & Upper Screws.......

I think the culprit has been found....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

So this more than likely isn't an Anson & Deeley Body Action but some Pieper Modified A&D Platform?

If you every have it apart, inquiring minds sure would like to see the internals.....

Seeing you are now Mr. Bernard, what might be your next Bernard acquisition.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

These 2 fell in my lap I bought both for less than 1600.00 total. I dont gamble at casinos any more just on guns.
If I see any more crazy deals like a rusty side lever Purdey or Lindner 16ga with longer than 26” barrels I will try my cards again so to speak. Very happy with 3 16ga hammer guns one German, British and now French. Probably 2 years before I will have them all back together but it will be one h#ll of a dove hunt weekend using those three.

You must be Livin' Right then as one just doesn't have 2 L. Bernard tubesets >>drop<< in ones lap..... One Tubeset is probably more valuable that what you ponied up for the brace of French guns. A hammergun is an addiction.....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

After this shoot this year I was hooked. Hope to shoot a few more Sunday.

If I could scout and time things correctly with my 250 acres of corn fields in Glasgow Ky(farmers can be sporadic as the weather)I would have you and anyone close by here join us. Most of the time I just show up(I’m 1.7hrs away) and hope for the best it’s hit or miss but half the time it’s pretty impressive. 2 coveys and a few rabbits on that farm so if no doves may still get a bird or rabbit. Wish Doc was close it would be fun to give him some payback also.

I am so humbled & grateful for the offer, but so many before me have greatly added to the data mining. Hause & I have been @ it under the same yoke for about 20 years now, when we hitched our harnesses & hames. I had taken a German Kombo hammergun as partial payment for services and I know not Hause's driving factor. But I think I know his sporting fancies & if you get that Pieper / G-R up and running and travel to Kansas to meet us, I believe he would show....

In the meantime, set your sights on a Modé of Paris as a spring board to a František Faukner a Praze, then on to the pinnacle being a Matska w/ Léopold Bernard tubes.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And on a historical & happenstance note, Wolfgang actually pulled from his neighbour's trash a weekly magazine that had the Pieper advert tucked among the tattered pages...... I guess Wolfgang is a >>Dumpster Diver<<, for sporting info????

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, PeteM was a member of the Trio & rounded out the Three Amigos.


Amazing how times & things change. I am setting here watching >>McHale's Navy<< making Chai & Bacon and have a house full of Japanese International Students.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

This just proves the lengths that member will go to in order to acquire quality info for you....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

And on the aide with info, all I can say or request is that you pass it on as I have....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I couldn’t have even known what to look for without you Gentlemen’s advice and wisdom. Thank you all! I will do what I can to pass it on.

Too, without you taking note here and there & on auctions, these relics from the Golden Age of Gunning would be resigned to the rusty scrap heap of history, masked & obscured by neglect & the elements for few, if any, to enjoy & appreciate. A vailed effort by the ravages of time, nipped in the bud in the nick of time by a keen eye, a stout hand & Ballistol, where you have invested in an abandoned platform and coveted tubes bringing it back to its former self and pressing it into service for future aficionados to appreciate & enjoy. I for one am ecstatic to be involved in the process. Should I say more.....


Serbus,

Riamey
rse

Should you venture over to the Dark Side of British Wares, all you need is an original forend iron where cobbling every component back together with said forend iron makes the platform, All Original >>As New<<...

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

https://connecticutshotgun.co/c-mod...ga-29-nitro-proofed-barrels-79253-79254/

Here is a lovely brace of C. Mode scatterguns, but they only have the lowly Whitworth Steel Chopper Lump Tubesets from the Little British Isles. Most of C.(Célestin Jules) Modé were Belgian sourced but never have I seen the unqiue AF stamp @ the bottom.



Maybe it was Célestin Jules Modé's Belgian connection that allowed him not to have the mark, if a Paris mark?



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

French 16ga with L.Bernard fluid steel barrels came home today. 6lbs 2oz 14 3/8 Lop 29.5in barrels balances .5 inches in front of hinge pin and may have the best stichk of all my guns.Gunmaker confirmed it’s actually a dual sear action not fake or altered.




I’m definitely a French double fan

Fantastic straight-hand stock.....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Holy mackerel, Kingfish! . Really came out beautifully.

From sporting classics daily. Maybe AF after all?

Francotte was the Satellite Stamping Station, as well as APUN fee collector, for most of the European/German platforms based on the Anson & Deeley Body Action. Auguste Schoverling had to be very chummy w/ Francotte & Charles Daly was the thread that binds.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Powerpole Grower, McPhail, collector of Early Americana, give that he has an American double w/ L. Bernard tubeset stamped >>10632.1857<< and he knows of another with the same stamped >>10637.1857<<, being only 5 numbers apart.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Note how Patrick Mullins(McPhail as custodian) was quite cunning in applying his name over Bertrand Germain Léopold Bernard. I do wonder just how many gunsmiths did the same. Also, I am very interested in how sourcing lines went to Paris for all these tubesets on American Platforms?


>>10632.1857<<



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

McPhail gives this Krider has Bertrand Germain Léopold Bernard à Paris #17388 - 1864

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for posting Raimey-I plan to display some guns at the Southern Sde by Side.
Four American shotguns with L Bernard BBLS--3 Patrick Mullins and a John Krider.
Five Nimschke engraved American Shotguns-3 Wm Schaefers, T R Hasdell and Hall & Hogdon
Would love to have anyone come by.
Bill McPhail

Good to see you post again McPhail. I must get up that way.....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse