doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Guyot 16ga side peddle rust removal?

Sorry kinda stumbled on some french treasures last couple days.
How do I safely remove this rust from this 1 in my lifetime Guyot, Bernard barreled 16ga 1881 side peddle.
Coverd parts have no rust just surface rust on outside from hanging around for 100 yrs.

You can start out with White Vinegar or migrate to 346 I think it is, but it converts ALL rust to a primer state and about the only way to change that state is to paint it? If whatever you put in the 346 is Rust, there will be nothing left.....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Leave it be.

Best,
Ted

I have used liquid wrench and frontier pads with some pretty good results, but that was a Baker. Surly there is a better proven way. Birchwoods rust remover? Boil then card? Anybody ever tackled this kind of rust on a rare gun before? I will definitely send it off to a professional after some cleaning. I dont usually have problems with taking apart sidelocks never had a bar in wood though.

Must have been judge or executioners gun.

Numquam Impune?

numquam impune means " never with impunity ", i think

Plus Gas Formula A applied with 0000 fine steel (or bronze) wool.

Here is one past discussion on various rust removal methods:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...ords=Molasses&Search=true#Post486326


I am still partial to using a molasses solution to remove rust from gun parts. It is cheap, easy, and does not etch parts. It does not leave a coating as phosphoric acid rust
converters do. You can actually forget about parts, tools, etc., that you leave in your molasses solution for months, and it will not damage them.

Molasses will remove bluing, since bluing is a form of rust. So it is not something to use if you desire to preserve any original finish. But it is one of those things I wish I had learned about when I was much younger.

Why not send it to a professional Before you clean it? You run the risk of screwing it up to the point it cannot be made presentable. The professional knows exactly what to do and can give you options based on your expectations for the final outcome.

I would talk to Gournet since you are dealing with an engraved gun. No since doing any damage that will have to be undone later. Gournet knows a lot about practical gunsmithing techniques. I also recommend having him do any needed engraving restoration.

I second the suggestion to send it to a pro, that can also address any mechanical issues. It appears from the photo that it is not closing completely as the top of the barrel breeches are proud of the top of the breech balls. Perhaps a thorough cleaning and lubing, along with the surface rust removal, would correct that. If not, it needs to be addressed otherwise.

Interesting pattern which is probably "Bernard Twist".



Several Liege tube makers called it "Rubans Royal" (far right). The 2nd from R would be Damascus Twist, also called "Birmingham"

An ultrasonic cleaning would be where to start on this one in my opinion. It might surprise you what is under the crud.

Interesting purdey looks very close to Guyot. Hammers are almost exact match. Same source?

I usually either sonic clean everything (I have a 24" tank so you can do barrels by two reverse cleanings) or if just the outside, I use Ballistoil and Frontier pads. No conversion so no blue/brown removal. Forntiers won't scratch and the Ballistoil really takes the rust off.

From the photograph rust removal should come a little further down the list of things to be doing. The gun is obvious of the face by the gap at the barrel to breach top either by not locking up properly or the knuckle to barrel hook is worn. I am sure a gun of that age with the rust it has a visit to a capable gunsmith for a well needed repair estimate and service, would be worth your time and trouble to know of any hiden problems as well as the rust.

Tested evaporust on some Damascus barrels I had laying around. Very impressive, only let them soak for exactly 1 hr. I was concerned about the solution attacking the welds or iron in the barrels but see no such thing. All light rust was removed.Rinsed them out with water and dried. Covered in Rem oil.

The results you got using Evaporust are pretty much identical to what you'd see using a solution of molasses and water. The big differences are that the molasses solution typically takes longer, but it costs a fraction as much. I can fill a plastic 55 gallon drum of Molasses solution at a 5-6 parts water to 1 part molasses for around $20.00. It's very hard to find Evaporust for under $20.00 a gallon, even in bulk. I still use Evaporust, but only when removing rust from small items or gun parts indoors during the winter months. Both products work quite a bit slower when used in colder temps.

Both methods rely upon the chelation of common red rust (Iron oxide hydrate), or in your case, the black iron oxide (Ferro ferric oxide) that we use as rust bluing. The oxygen atom is stripped from the iron oxide molecule, and the iron is left behind, no longer bound to the base metal. You can use either Evaporust or Molasses solution over and over until it gradually becomes depleted. When totally spent, the depleted solution is not toxic, and can be dumped around trees or shrubs to give them a shot of iron. Some sources say that the item must be completely submerged, or you may get pitting at the water (or sludge) line, but I have not seen that happen yet.

A while back, I bought a pair of 4 ft. Pony Bar Clamps for a buck apiece at a Swap Meet. They were fairly heavily rusted, and the screws were frozen. I thought about putting some penetrating oil on the threads, but instead just soaked them in a roughly 2 ft. deep container of Molasses solution for a week. After that end was rust free, I flipped ends and soaked the other end for another week. There was no sign of pitting at the point where they were above the solution. It also got into the rusted threads and freed them up. I now use a length of capped PVC pipe for soaking longer items. Some internet sources say that Molasses solution, (or Evaporust) may cause pitting on machined surfaces, such as engine blocks, cylinder heads, or tools. But I have forgotten about items left in my bucket of molasses slop for months, and found no such damage when I rinsed and scrubbed them off. I believe that if there is pitting after using these solutions, it was there all along, hidden under heavy rust. Neither product is going to replace steel or iron that is already gone.

Obviously, you'll be refinishing the barrels. I think I'd try ultrasonic cleaning for all of the other case hardened parts, rather than doing any chemical or abrasive cleaning. The results some guys have gotten are amazing.

I have never seen a monobloc British barrel, nor damascus tubes (3 Iron 'British Best') joined to damascus breech. Is the maker R. Grove?



\

The proof marks date to 1875-1887 and H. Pieper's patent (using a steel breech) was 1881. The initial patent had the tubes inserted from the breech with a step from breech to barrels.
Pieper Modified Diana (no step and "Washington" tubes inserted from the front) with steel breech

I think he just dipped them in 4” of evaporust

Yes just 4” of evaporust for testing.

I'm not sure that this link works but I have an Enos James 12g BLE from about 1910 which does indeed have sleeved steel barrels on a damascus breech.
https://imgbox.com/gallery/edit/OL3Kci6Dxr/T607YX6WFGSVdW0w

Now I've put my glasses on I see that you were referring to damascus barrels sleeved to a damascus breech. My mistake.

Rust was superficial, all wiped off with ballistol? Metal finish looks pretty nice as is.



Bernard twist barrel’s look great no real pitting outside with fresh looking plumb brown finish.
Barrels marked #2 with Guyot and address on top. Action flats marked with a number 1 but both have same serial number?
Chambers just shy of 2.75” bores both measure .680 chokes are .004 and .032
Bores are prestine so honed.
End of chamber thickness 114 on both, 9 inch from breach both .045, 6 in from muzzle .024 .025
Barrels are tight on action but can see sliver of light at breach when closed.
What do you think the bores would have been before honing? My other bernards were marked over 17.2 from factory .677?
Metal will just be cleaned but wood will get refinished.
What pressure 16ga shells were used in 1881?
Any thoughts?

I can't help with the pressure question but that gun sure cleaned up well. Looks great.

Some early Belgian 16s are marked 16.8 = .661". Later up to 17.0 = .669"

This is from 1892 and note the 16g loads are 2 3/4 Dram Eq. and you need to add 10 - 14% for transducer numbers. The Belgian black powder standard was also 2 3/4 Dram but Smokeless loads were mostly 2 1/2 Dr. Eq.



1 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. Bulk Smokeless loads ran about 7,500 psi

Thanks doc after gun maker puts barrels exactly on face I will just shoot sub 5000 psi loads in it. I have a set of 16ga x28ga tubes if I get nervous. Man they ring as good as any barrels I have tried! I found 3 sets of Bernard barrels(on internet) 2 were pin fires,with 17.2 mm marks and they ranged from .675- .680 not counting these. Hopefully they started life around .675, but measurements look safe enough for black powder pressure levels.

Guns action is labeled number 1 with serial number 215 but barrel and forend are both labeled number 2 with 215? Did french pairs share the same serial number? Inletting is amazing.

I wouldn't say so but who knows. I wonder if the pair were so similar in dimensions that someone actually put the tubeset & forend on the other frame?

How does the safety read on both of your latest acquisitions?

Do it is important to understand that mechanics just didn't put bona fide L. Bernard tubesets on just any platform. Best of the Best outside of H.A. Lindner of course.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Even though those are Bar-In-Wood Locks, they are spectacular.


Looking @ the inletting, I would hazard a guess that they components of the pair were interchangeable.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

If you would, post a foto of the Bernard tubeset serial number & put the number in text on the Bernard thread?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

There will be no need to refinish any of the metal now, I used a little bit of everybody’s advice. It looks much better than the cell phone pic now. Thanks again, all of you.

JJ Perodeau has this thing now. I thought he would be the best choice for a Guyot/Bernard gun. Can’t wait to hunt behind a brace of good dogs with this one! Put together a few 7/8oz longshot loads (just reduced 1oz to 7/8, 1oz was 1140fps)for my other 16ga Damascus, will send some off to get tested with different primers plus or minus a grain to get most velocity at 5000psi. Thanks again and Merry Christmas!

It looks beautiful! Thanks for letting us follow the project. I learned some good techniques from your thread. Merry Christmas!

Great looking gun and what a great thread on rust removal. Learned a bunch

[quote=Drew Hause]I have never seen a monobloc British barrel, nor damascus tubes (3 Iron 'British Best') joined to damascus breech.

Well I stumbled on one

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ool-other-features-.cfm?gun_id=102923387

Thank you. The breech crolle pattern is a bit more apparent in this image
I wish the seller had included a shot of the flats which should have a date of proof after the sleeving

Guyot came back from Mr. Perodeau. On face, newsprings on firing pins said it’s all original so not to blue or brown anything. Will have wood refinished very soon, but will take his advice on leaving metal original. Nitre blue triggers would sure look better though.
[img]https://imgur.com/a/pOpIbOM[/img]
[img]https://imgur.com/a/WqrRgZx[/img]
[img]https://imgur.com/a/fMxvt7M[/img]
Patterns great with 7/8oz 1150fps Longshot load 6000 psi

Nice effort. That is a Southpaw/Left-Handed hammergun?

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Nope cast off just side pedal on the right. I got lucky with this one. Thanks

Kind of unrelated, but there is a nice Guyot cartridge suitcase that showed up on ebay a couple days ago that might display well with this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/187483447831

Also, there are a handful of 1921 invoices from him on there now too; they've been on there for quite awhile and clog up my searches so would be great if you grabbed them too! =)
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dk...;_oac=1&_nkw=guyot%20paris%20-marcel

I have looked at "old world" shotguns all my adult life and I am still amazed at the wood to metal fit of these guns. It looks like it grew there. That is a very nice shotgun. I passed up a nice 12ga side lever gun a few years ago at auction and I should have bought it. It didn't bring much money but I passed on it. I was looking for a 16ga Parker but haven't found one yet.


JHolland

Thanks. Lots of great buys showing up now, unfortunately guys that appreciated them are passing away and none of their surviving family know or care about the guns. Only the common big name makers guns will retain much value in the future. I’m 55 and happy to be able to use these works of art but now days I would much prefer sharing some field time with those old guys. I’m afraid in 20 years it may all be gone with the wind.

Guyot finally came home complete. From rust removal, JJP strip and clean with rejoint to now back from Cole and Jacob Haughs wood restoration. I really enjoy this one just don’t want to wear the old girl out. I’m sticking with my 3/4oz 1150 fps nickel 8s at 6000psi. So much fun to shoot doves with this one. Looking forward to doing it again soon!