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An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle

I am always attracted to unusual and unique double rifles, and this one sure fits the bill. This Collath, like the Dreyse 11mm I posted earlier, also comes from Europe. The high grade features of this Collath double rifle would indicates it must have been made for a customer that could afford the very best.

I will have this double rifle in hand some time next week and I will post additional pictures then. In the mean time, the following pictures came from the seller's post. Searching the internet shows several Collath SxS shotguns and drillings, but this was the only double rifle found. The fact that its 24 gauge will make loading and regulation a challenge. The bore size of a 24 gauge shotgun is 0.579 inches in diameter. A paradox style bullet mold will be ordered for 24 gauge, and a regulating load will be developed.

This Collath's function is is very interesting. When the under-lever beneath the forearm is rotated, a cam pulls the barrel assembly forward. From this forward position, the barrels can be tipped down for loading, just like a conventional break-action double.
(like this link shows) https://i697.photobucket.com/a...sidejoseDSCN0777.jpg

Any additional information about W. Collath, and your comments, are most welcome.

https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/COLLATH-00.jpg

I am curious if the bore diameter was actually measured?

Teschner - Collath sporting arms are quite novel with their eccentric breech. Georg Teschner(Johann Gottlieb Teschner) founded the concern in 1838(the same year Wilhelm Collath(Carl Wilhelm Theodor Collath) was born) and brought it thru the pinfire age I believe. Wilhelm Collath found gainful employment @ Teschner in 1859. And the story continues from there. There was a satellite stamping station or satellite proof facility @ the Teschner - Collath concern(later W. Collath & Sohne) & they had their own bore gauges:

0 = 10 gauge
1 = 12 gauge
3 = 14 gauge
4 = 16 gauge
5 = 18 gauge
6 = 20 gauge
7 = 24 gauge
8 = 28 gauge

I have seen a similar one stamped No 5660 Cal. 3 11/15?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

You never mention but is this truly a rifle or a Paradox type? I am asking for a couple of reasons. One is that, as mentioned, Collath made a number of proprietary chamberings. I once owned the highest grade Collath I have ever seen. It was much older than yours appears and much more ornate and intricately designed, such as longitudinal reinforcing ribs machined into the back third of the Damascus barrels and gold wire inlays over the entire rear of the barrels and action. I bought it for very little because the barrels were 14 gauge and appeared to have chambers bored out to 12 gauge. I found out later that it was a propriety Collath chambering, similar to the Egyption Martini.

The other reason I asked is that it is possible that if the barrels are truly rifled it may be simply chambered in .577 Snyder. It was relatively common for a while to have doubles made in this caliber and I have seen a few for sale in the last year. It is very easy to confuse the two without careful measurement. I would certainly consider this before thinking of an odd 24 gauge paradox type gun. Almost everyone who shoots the Snyder uses 24 ga brass cases, and often they will chamber as is in a worn Snyder chamber. The first thing I would try is a 24 ga brass case and then a Snyder cartridge. For simplicity you may want to start loading with a properly sized lead ball. If the barrel is the proper diameter a Snyder bullet can be used. Regulation may be tough but load development should amount to just looking up some recommended Snyder handloads no matter what the actual chamber since for all practical purposes they are the same.

I have an early commercial Snyder with a tight spec barrel and it will not accept a 24 ga case, but most will. If the 24ga case will chamber, simply fireform a few to the chambers, trim them based on the obvious neck position and load a few up. Measure the fireformed case to determine the actual ID.

Forgot to mention that Collath also made an extensive line of shotgun gauge ball cartridges. I not long ago bought a Sauer underlever hammer gun that was a Cape Gun type. The left barrel was a normal 16 ga shotgun and the right barrel was a 20 ga chamber with a rifled barrel the had the groove diameter of 16 bore and the bore diameter of a 20 gauge. I finally realized that they had used a set of 16 gauge rough tubes and bored the left barrel to 16 ga and the right barrel to 20 ga bore and then rifled it to a groove diameter of near 16 ga diameter. The chambers were made to several lengths in each ga and the one I had was made for a 1-5/8" chamber length. One thing this did is yield a barrel with much more barrel thickness than would be present in a shotgun barrel of standard configuration or with a standard Paradox barrel. I tried a couple of cast balls of varying diameter until I found one the pushed through easily and filled the grooves completely.

Hello AGS, thanks for the reply.

I load for both the 577 snider and 24 gauge.
Both barrels of the Collath are full length rifled with a variation of paper-patch rifling.
I will do a chamber cast when I get the double in hand next week.

Hello ... I got the double rifle in hand today. Its in spectacular condition. But, now I'm really confused as to the caliber. I guess the "CAL 3 24" marking must stand for 3" 24 gauge. But the chamber cast is identical to 600 NE, except with a thinner and smaller dia rim. Perhaps a 600 bpe?


any suggestions?

https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/24ga-cast-000.jpg

Collath advertised double rifles in common and Express cartridges but also advertised that upon request would make one in any domestic (German) or foreign cartridge. Therefore, the rifle could be chambered for practically any cartridge, including those that would be nominally the same cartridge but would have differing chamber dimensions depending on whether brass or paper cases were to be used (this could also affect rim diameter/thickness). Diameter of a bullet to be used in a paper case cartridge could differ from the diameter of the diameter of a bullet intended for the same nominal cartridge but intended for use in a brass case. Since you have discovered an apparent discrepancy in chamber diameter vs bore diameter, this might be the cause. With the chamber cast (I'm guessing it is long enough to show bore and groove diameters) I'm sure you can sort this out, I can't.
Mike

Might you pleasure us with some fotos of the proofmarks, if any?

Collath - Teschner's eccentric tipping breech platform was / is limited to lower pressure cartridges, so I don't think I would necessarily associate this 24 bore platform to the 600 NE, unless the 600NE pressure was tolerable. Who knows, Collath - Teschner may have made such ammo? So I would check their ammo line? Last, 24 bores seem to gravitate to the Austro-Hungarian Empire and maybe a skosh further East. Who would have ordered such a 24 bore chambering in an eccentric tipping breech platform and what was the desired use, i.e. what quarry was he chasing? The spectacular condition of the 24 bore DR is probably due to the fact that when the original custodian ignited his stash / lot of 24 bore cartridges, additional ammo was scarce at Best.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

There is no need to speculate about .600 NE.
The early breech loading hunting rifles used cartridges of various types (pinfire, Lancaster, Teschner, Dreyse, whatever more), brass or cardboard hulls of various length. 24 gauge was a common caliber, bullets were stubby things with a rounded head (in German "Katzenkopf-Geschoss), ballistics similar to, but possibly inferior to muzzleloaders. Used for hunting deer, wild boar etc in Germany, also Austria etc. Gravitation to the East??
All these constructs soon became obsolete with the development of BPE cartidges and then (for Germany) with the 11,15x60R in 1871.
And these again were obsolete by 1888.
These were expensive times for hunters - every 10 or 15 years your up-to-date equipment was thoroughly obsolete.

Nothing excentric about Teschner-Collath guns (except the locking principle). They were produced until WWII, chambered for nitro cartridges, and obviously plenty strong.

fuhrmann

fuhrmann:

You can define the subject platform as stout as you fancy, but you are not going to stuff a 600 Nitro Express round n the chamber, ignite it & get favourable results. Just not going to happen.

Almost daily I tote a 24 Bore and 500 Express Biks made in Ferlach in 1911. Now who in the world in 1911 orders a 500 Express in 1911, less some eccentric, possibly Bohemian? The Borovlje in Ferlach made the Lefuša and subsequent hammergun platforms with metal buttplates for thrashing game well past WWI as their clients too held on to the past or were difficult to convert / convince of the new fangled platforms. 24 ammo is quite common as Italy must be lush with 24 bores, but they are not 3". But whomever ordered the 24 bore X 500 Express, of which I am a custodian, in 1911 had a specific purpose.

I am confident that a Jäger @ the Diana Hunt Club in Berlin didn't order the subject hammerless Collath 24 Bore DR to dispatch boars. Rather the Collath client had some purpose for the 3" chambering. Why not 40mm? What did the extra length out to 3" get you? Had it been a purpose of common nature, we would all be custodians of 3" 24 Bores?

Now you are most correct on the evolution of hunting technology and I am not sure that the average Jäger could afford the subject hammerless Collath platform, much less the ammo.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Just an hour ago, an awaited and cherished new guest arrived here at home, comfortably expedited from Franconia (no, not Frankonia ;-)):
A Drilling from the incipit of the last century, built possibly after 1912, but likely in the first two decades of the 20th century I would guess; the proof specialists will however be able to date it with more precision. It bears already the more modern calibre designation ("6,3 mm" over "52"), has the standard bullet weight stamped ("K.m.G. 7 gr"), but not the (optional) charge weight.

Mince, elegant, beautifully handling (while some older Drillinge can double as a battle mace), perfectly fitting my build and pointing well, both with the shotgun barrels and with the open rifle sights.

But the most unusual thing, for which I mostly bought it, was its stylish calibre combition: two shotgun barrels in 24 gauge (!) and a rifle barrel in 6,5x52R (the continental brother of the .25-35, with a somewhat milder CIP pressure limit).
All three barrels were nitro proofed in Suhl, but no visible date, nor a ledger ("Beschussbuch") number.

Double under-barrel lugs and Doll's head, locking and cocking activated by a Roux type lever under the trigger guard. Rifled barrel of course with a set trigger.

Quite a beauty, and in this configuration possibly rarer than most Collaths. 😋☺️😂

Carcano

Sounds beautiful. Share pictures if you can.

I shall, preliminarily, share the now past and closed eGun auction with its pics.
Since Ted Schiefelbein had (indirectly) let me know in another thread that linking to an auction is not anathema here - thank you !

https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=20130926

Carcano

That is a true beauty. Will be looking forward to its continuing story.

I agree, that’s a beautiful gun. I look forward to hearing more about it.

One - maybe slightly meandering - consideration of mine. More tentative yet, than pontificating... ;-)

The Drilling in its classical and popular configuration was and is often touted as the "universal one-stop hunting weapon", with its shot barrels suited for all kinds of small game on feet or wings (an approximation only for the characteristic German term "Niederwild", which includes roe deer, but excludes capercaillie, eagle, and even the smallest piglets), and the rifle barrel for "Hochwild" (cannot be translated as big game).
The typical "Försterdrillling" in 16/65-16/65 (at times also 12/65) and 9,3x72R or 9,3x82R was considered the affordable and universally useful gun, more modern in its - tempi passati - "small-bore, flat-shooting rifle round" (ha-hah) than the older English-influenced straight express cases such as 11,15x65R and all so-called "Lancasterpatronen".

The double rifle Drilling would be considered a specialized and expensive weapon of discerning choice for the "Hochwildjäger" (today, nigh 100 % of all German hunters are by necessity Hochwildjäger now, since wild boars are nearly omnipresent), or for the African hunter. Still today, a few affluent hunters tote a DBD at driven game hunts, in the way of a double rifle.
Bockbüchsdrillinge are near extinct, since the small barrel's purpose today is nearly always fulfilled by inserts in one shot barrel.

(Vierlinge are a toy - an expensive toy for adult boys. You have it, fondle it, brag around and show off, but you do not really hunt with it)

What we have *here* in my auction link, however, would appear to be an unusual purpose - a "Niederwilddrilling":
Elegant, still reasonably lightweight, not meant for larger game. Shotgun size best for stylish woodcock. ;-)
Rifle barrel to be used for fox, badger, roe deer. A hundred years ago for capercaillie (as still today in Scandinavia and Finland).

Carcano

Carcano,
Can you ID the actual maker of your drilling? I am asking because I have a top lever drilling (also made "for the trade") in 16x16/ 8x57R-360 (rechambered from 65mm to 70mm and reproofed in 1969 in Ulm) that has the same unusual, shaped escutcheon on the right side of the safety. I am wondering if they were both from the same maker.
Mike

I tried, and so far I failed, alas. ;-)
I would have guessed ESHA (Schmidt & Habermann), but the only thing I can see are the initials of the presumable mechanic (tube knitter, Rohrschlosser), namely R.M.

Carcano,
Oh well, Thanks any way for trying.
Mike

Dear Mike Ford,
you sound a bit disappointed. And so was I. My gun is conspicuously devoid of any ciphers, trademarks or texts that could be indicative of the actual (whole or parts) producer. The overall design is what we sometimes find called a "Suhler Einheitsdrillling", although the moniker is a bit misleading ("Einheits....", in German, connotates a given and imposed standard). Also, its locking system (two wedges into the respective barel underlugs, activated with a underlever) is widely called "Roux" in Germany, but old Henri Roux had almost nothing to do with it. I have just learned that the patent for this configuration allegedly went to Purdey already around 1863.

However, you have already indicated that the hint to the manufacturer (or parts deliverer) might frequently be some minute details in the configuration of specific parts, because parts and almost-finished guns were frequently made for the trade by only a few big players. ESHA (Schmidt & Habermann) was one of them.

Now let's look at the other Big Cat, namely at Jacob Rö[h]mer's "Rö[h]merwerk". He changed the spelling of his last name and became Römer (with the Römerwerk) at some point, maybe in the early 1920s. The company details have been tentatively (but not really in-depth archivally) researched and have been partially documented in the "Germanhuntingguns" website, founded by Dieter Apel, rebuilt and mainted by Larry Schuknecht.
https://germanhuntingguns.com/archives/romerwerk-the-becker-revolving-shotgun/

And indeed, a quick net.search just provided found pictures of one gun with this selfsame very peculiar escutcheon on the right side of the stock near the grip, in its characteristic claw-like or beak-like configuration. Maybe this is the "Eureka" moment ? ;-)
Here is the link to some pictures (the asking price is about one thousand € too high, by German standards, but that is typical for Buchmiller):

https://www.progun.de/haendlershop~gebu-waffenhandel_georg_buchmiller/filter/ac9195x6_roemerwerke_suhl_drilling_graviert_-_16-65_u_8x57ir.html

Regards,
Carcano

Carcano,
Yes, I was a little disappointed, but not devastated, I have seen enough such guns (made for the trade and not fully identified) that I understand they were (and are) part of the normal business practice. They are the same quality as if they were marked as to the maker. Another common practice was the use of common parts by known makers, such as safeties, springs, trigger guards, levers, etc. While a lot of these parts were the same, some craftsmen may have used their own unique treatment while shaping and fitting them. As is the same with the craftsmen's "touch marks" there is no listing of known unique shaping or treatment of these parts. Unless a particular treatment is markedly different than the others (such as the escutcheon in question) there is little chance it can be identified. Sometimes though, the maker of one of the trade guns may install one of their normal butt plates. even though a retailer's mark appears on the barrel. This might be a good indication of the maker, unless the butt plate in an obvious (misfitting) replacement. Another hint would be where the gun in question was proofed. Shul makers sometimes traded with Zella Mehlis makers for particular guns, such as the common underlever single shot rifle, and these guns might carry ZM proofs while the ones actually made in Suhl would likely have Suhl proof marks. The 8x57R-360 Drilling I mentioned above has original ZM proof marks (but reproofed in Ulm), so it was likely made by a ZM maker. This is why our hobby is fun and interesting.
Mike

One addition on the Römerwerk (or Roemerwerk, if your keyboard like most is Umlaut-impeded). I wrote above: " The company details have been tentatively (but not really in-depth archivally) researched and have been partially documented in the "Germanhuntingguns" website, founded by Dieter Apel, rebuilt and mainted by Larry Schuknecht."

The last and possibly the most thorough research on them is hidden in a rather unlikely place. But it's six pages of text, hence not exactly short. Here:
https://portal.dnb.de/opac.htm?method=simpleSearch&cqlMode=true&query=idn%3D1294783467

And here is its table of contents, see pp. 10-15.
https://d-nb.info/1294783467/04

Carcano

Good catch on the >>RM<< pointing towards Römerwerk / Römer & Compagnie / Röhmer und Compagnie. It has the mm stamp as well as a Bullet weight of 7 grammes or similar. And there is some odd stamp just under the mm stamp. But it doesn't wear a Nitro stamp. So with the stamps @ hand, I would hazard a guess for the date being right around WWI. Too, there is a K in a jagged circled, ratchet, whatever that points to the tubes being formed by Kelber or Klett.

Those white additions to the grip cap & buttplate are more than like post WWII additions so more than likely there was some modification post WWII.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Dear Raimey, thank you for supporting my educated (or, as the case may be, maleducated) guess; which I as far as now would not yet dare call an "identification ". I had based it on the shape of one peculiar accoutrement part about which Mike Ford had asked me, namely an escutcheon on the right stock side. I called it a "claw" or "beak" shape, but maybe the expression "ratchet shape" would sound more professional. ;-)

Actually, there were not many suppliers who would furnish finished or semi-finished parts ("Gestecke") to the trade, just the same as in the Basque country or in Birmingham or in Ferlach. The trade knew their suppliers, and those also advertized _to_ the trade, but the general public would have no idea.
Apart from ESHA (Schmidt & Habermann) and Rö[h]merwerk, I believe that Sauer & Sohn and Simson both also had the necessary machines and mechanization capacity, but I do not know how far they delivered actually.

Readers should bear in mind that the proudly flaunted title of "Gewehrfabrik" did not in the least support the conventional image of large factory buildings with shed roofs and high chimneys, but more often than not merely indicated that its owner paid more than his own family members and free-lancing outworkers in some dingy cellar or attic by the piece, but had a - however small - number of employed workers / labourers who received some daily or hourly wage from him. If only for assembling and finishing the bought metal parts and stocks. Poor Gustav Zink would be a good example.

Now, the "R.M." abbreviation, which we all probably take for a name, is not really what prompted me to Rö[h]merwerk, because this latter used an RW or RWS signet.
I have not been able yet to identify any barrel maker, or tube knitter, or system mechanic among the dispersed info on the 'Net, who could have fitted (pun intended) these two letters.

Only much later, the obvious sprung to my mind, which was hidden in plain view. Yes, there *IS* an R.M., even a very famous R.M. whom we all know. Namely Richard Mahrholdt.
But this very Mahrholdt was not in Suhl at the time, in spite of his very tight links thereto. He was in Innsbruck then, working in a leading capacity in the languishing Peterlongo factory which he revived. He must have frequently travelled back and forth to Suhl, Zella St. Blasii and Mehlis, but why would he personally a stamp a rifle barrel on a trade drilling? Doesn't make sense.

Carcano

Yeah, one sees that >>teardrop<< crossbolt anchor ever so often, like on this O. Geyger:

https://waffenhandel-zwack.de/bockottoberlin



It looks like a teardrop / white patch on a Canadian Goose.



And the >>F.A.K.<< is most interesting & for the moment all I can muster is the name of Fritz Albert Keßler, but like many initials, that's a longshot w/a limb in the way......


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I don't even think Mahrholdt is in the equation as he spent most of his time floating about on his Super Yacht thumbing thru his magazine. But if the longarm was made in Z-M and if Max Möller had a hand in the sculpting of the tubes, then Richard Möller, if related to ole Max Möller, could be the culprit. I think the 1st order of business is to determine which Gunmaking Centre is its origin.

The 24 bore is a dandy wand to tote in the field & this year I chased Kansas Ditch Parrots with it. Not the Best for training Kids & Dogs, but with Good Dogs it performs well.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

From a purely aesthetics perspective, to mine eye it resembles a Meffert Hubertus/Treff and is unadorned as were many of their wares. With that said, Richard Meffert was @ the Helm of Meffert but I think Richard Meffert made his last file stroke in mid 1910??




Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Recall too that several Keßlers were Principals @ Röhmer / Römerwerk Waffenfabrik und Mechanische Büchsenmacher & Cie.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...barrels-make-offer-.cfm?gun_id=103353623


Here's a F W Keßler with the >>Teardrop<< Stock Fastener/Stock Reinforcement.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Robert Schrader w/ the >>Teardrop<< Crossbolt Fastener / Reinforcement

This example has all the bells & whistles and closely resembles a JJ Reeb or maybe a Foerster(Barella or O. Geyger) w/ those artistic bolsters. And too another neat feature is the 3rd lock/tube cocked / loaded indicator atop the frame.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...rader-drilling.cfm?gun_id=103298189#md-8



Anyone hazard a guess as to what these 5 pins in the floorplate might suggest or what part these 5 pins might play?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

One opinion from a quite knowledgeable individual is that the pins are just adornments, just being Gold Inlays?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse