doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

Just a reminder of the ferment of UK gun making in the early 1860's is this Reilly Enfield percussion 2 band rifle-musket SN 11418 numbered in early 1860 and converted to a Snider after 1866. Arsenal did not convert Enfields made after 1859 for the military. Reilly did of course for sporting use but this one would have made the cut anyway. There is a chapter on Snider's in the history above, p. 94 which is as good a short history of the Snider as one can find:
. .IX: Reilly, Arsenal and the British Army: 93
. . . . .51. 1866-1890’s: Reilly Builds (Civilian) Snider-Enfields

https://www.lot-art.com/auction-lot...illy-London-57/415-volunteer_snider-03.7



(The "engraving" must be pitting).

This will only change the history a bit but is so interesting it's worth a post. This is a JC Reilly air gun from 316 High Holborn...early 1840-ish - the name changed to "Reilly" in August 1840. But it is not an "air cane." It is a full blown rifle of the type carried by Lewis & Clark and tried out by various armies never before seen with a Reilly name on it. (The use of our history and calling JC a "gunmaker" is gratifying): Edit: Sold: $10,000 USD
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-...queryID=a03d12085c5238bb644fb3493b28a628



Desirable Game Scene Engraved Girardoni System Repeating Stock Reservoir Sporting Air Rifle with Case Inscribed "F. Baring" and Air Pump This Girardoni pattern repeating air rifle is signed "Herzberg am Harz" on the lock, indicating the lock was made by an unknown German gunmaker. The screw-off buttstock air reservoir is signed "REILLY 316 HOLBORN LONDON IMPROVED" around the threaded joint section in reference to London gunmaker Joseph Charles Reilly listed as active at that address between c. 1837-1847. The Girardoni (sometimes spelled "Girandoni") is easily the most famous early air rifle or windbuchse largely thanks to the fact that for many years it has been associated with Lewis & Clark and their famous Corps of Discovery Expedition. It is widely believed that they either had a Girardoni or a very similar design by Isaiah Lukens of Philadelphia. The Girardoni was designed by Bartolomeo Girardoni around 1779 and is also significant as one of the first widely used repeating martial arms, with a magazine tube on the right side of the barrel for use with lead balls and a breech block that is able to be pressed sideways against spring pressure for loading/repeating capability. They were notably used by Austrian sharpshooters from 1787-1815. Because the air tanks took around 30 minutes of pumping by hand to bring to full pressure, the riflemen had assistants that repressurized the reservoirs initially and later also had more efficient wagon mounted pumps. "Wind guns" had several advantages over conventional firearms including that they were quieter, smokeless, quicker to reload, and relatively unaffected by rain. They also required less cleaning since they did not require corrosive black powder. This attractive example is chambered in approximately .40 caliber/10 mm and features an octagon barrel with eight-groove rifling, blade front sight, two leaf notch rear sight, high quality engraving with a game scene on the top of the gold finished frame and a star pattern motif on top of the breech, a walnut stock with carved patterns along the sides of the ramrod channel and checkering beneath the grip area, horn forend tip, and a shagreen wrapped metal buttstock air reservoir. Includes a period fitted wooden case with green felt lined interior, brass handle and plaque on the lid inscribed "F. Baring" and containing an air pump. Included consignor notes indicate the inscribed name on the case may belong to a Captain Francis Baring, Fusilier Guards, Deputy Assistant Quartermaster General, attached to the Light Division. More information on Girardoni air rifles can be found on pages 598-601 of the book "Blue Book of Airguns, Thirteenth Edition".

Added this to the history p. 94 of this line:

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Chapter II: 316 High Holborn: 1835 – 1847
. . .8. 1840's: Air-guns

"There is one pure air-gun Rifle with JC Reilly’s name on it and the 316 High Holborn address probably marketed/made around 1840 which is not an air cane; it is Girardoni-style military rifle as carried by Lewis & Clark and used by various armies including the Austrian army snipers."



Can anyone shed light on what is going on in the "game scene" engraving? Looks like some sort of varmit out of hell.

Mike Harrells beautiful SxS .500 BPE with steel barrels and Dr. Drew Haus's research along with that of Raimey has led to this change in the Reilly history...p. 95 above
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...lat&Number=650827&gonew=1#UNREAD
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=650684#Post650684


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

-- Chapter Xi - 1880's; sub-chapter
. . . . .76 - Reilly and Steel barrels

*76 1882: Reilly and Steel Barrels

Decarbonized steel was used for making barrels as early as the mid 1800’s but suffered from quality and durability.A steel plate would be just being over a mandril and welded along its length at the bottom. However, in the mid 1860’s there were three almost simulataeous improvements in steel which untimately translated into commercial sporting gun barrels.

. .-- in 1865 Whitworth took out a patent for “Fluid Compressed Steel,” a new way of making high carbon steel. It was revolutionary. But because of price (and possibly consumer resistance) it was not integrated into sporting guns until around 1875 when William Powel & Sons used it for a few barrels. It was popularized when Purdey produced a matched pair of shotguns with whitworth barrels delivered in January 1880. Whitworth steel became so esteemed that the patent was extended in 1879 for four years *76a and after it expired, gun makers continued to put the Whitworth grain-sheaf stamp on their barrels as a sign of quality.

. .-- in 1866 Deakin & Johnson were making weldless rifle barrels from a steel block which was bored, rolled, stretched and annealed over and over again, an arduous process. Powell had customers asking for these barrels as early as 1866. However Greener in his 1881 book “the Gun” confirmed that the procedure was long and expensive and that the firm making these barrels finally ceased trading in 1875. *76b

. .-- and in 1865 William Siemens set up “Sample Steelworks” to use the Seimens-Martin “Open Hearth” process. Again Powell had customers in 1872 requesting "Bessemer steel" barrels. Seimens steel was in general use by 1875. Webley began using Siemen’s steel barrels around 1880.*76c

Note: By 1869 Arsenal began producing Snider-Enfields with steel barrels after the selected portion of Iron barreled Enfield rifle-muskets had been converted (Chapter IX: 51. 1866-1890’s: Reilly Builds Civilian Snider-Enfields). What type of steel was used in these barrels seems difficult to pin-down.

There are not many UK extant sporting guns from the early-mid 1870’s with original steel barrels. However Reilly by 1876 was making special-ordered steel barreled guns possibly influenced by William Powell. Reilly always wanted to be seen as open to new technologies.

The two extant mid-1870's Reilly guns with steel barrels are both .500 SxS BPE rifles. Both are extrordinarially well made and obviously expensive, top of the line. Who made these barrels and by what process is not known though one assumes these likely would be Seimens process barrels. (No specfic Reilly advertisement for steel barreled rifles have been found from that time period but he did advertise throughout the 1870’s that his guns used all the most up-to-date technologies).

. . . . .SN 19953 (1875): - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London. 500 BPE. Rifle SxS. U-L hammer gun, steel 28” barrels. Round back-action lock. *76d



. . . . .SN 20674(1876): - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502, New Oxford Street, London & rue Scribe, Paris. 500 BPE. Rifle SxS. U-L hammer gun, steel 28” barrels. The barrels have a stamp “S.SM” which possibly could refer to Samuel Smith, who with his brother Charles were located in the mid-1870’s at 18, Oxenden street, Birmingham. *76e



The standard for steel barrels ultimately seems to have became Whitworth steel. In January 1882 Reilly for the first time advertised guns specifically equipped with Whitworth compressed fluid steel barrels. (The extended Whitworth patent expired in 1883 as mentioned, but the Whitworth “Grain Sheaf” trademark stamp was still placed by gun makers as a mark of quality.

. . . . .First Reilly advertisement for Whitworth compressed steel barrels; Reilly 1886 16 bore with the Whitworth grain sheaf trademark stamp *76f



Note: This advertisement is important for three more reasons - It has the old and new addresses for both Reilly workshops (the numbers changed in early November 1881) and it mentions Reilly selling ready-made "off the rack" guns or by custom fitting. In 1881 Reilly first announced he was selling ready-made guns; his serial numbered guns total topped 1000 guns in 1882 (Chapter Xi, 69). It also illustrates Reilly's sole distributorship of Sharpes Rifles in UK.

The first known Reilly shotgun with “Compressed Steel barrels” (per the advertisement), which are presumably Whitworth since no one else had “compressed steel,” is the above pictured December 1881 Cyril Adams pigeon gun:

. . . . .SN23574 (Dec 1881): - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). 12 bore; Shotgun SxS; S-L, Pigeon gun, third bite, hammer gun. Side clips; Flat file cut rib; low profile hammers; 31" "Compressed Steel" barrels; 8 lbs. (Cyril Adams) *75g.



The first Reilly steel barreled gun, which actually pictures the “wheat sheaf” Whitworth trademark, is another pigeon gun from above SN 24365:

. . . . .SN 24365 (Sep 1882): - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). Shotgun SxS, 12 bore, top lever; Side clips; Flat file cut rib; low profile hammers; 31" Whitworth steel barrels, pigeon gun. 7 lbs. 8 oz.*76h



As late as 1888 WW Greener in his book Modern Shotguns stated that Whitworth Steel barrels were not as strong as high-quality Damascus. Reilly for his part continued to use Damascus for the majority of his barrels up to the early 1900's. By that time the Damascus blanks came from Liege.

14983 is "12boreman"'s U-L C-F Reilly which he continues to use today. It is the first Reilly documented with the rue Scribe address on the rib. There was a lot of speculation about those C-F hammers but a re-evaluation of the photos shows that it likely was a pin-fire later modified to C-F.

Yet, those fences look a lot healthier than the normal pin-fire in spite of the "sun bursts" around the presumably former pin-fire holes. (One always wonders about "tradition"; did Reilly build a C-F to look like a pin-fire?

I don't think the addresses on the rib were changed after modification so the historical data remains the same except for the comment about the C-F system and it's use as a date-marker for February 1868 is intact. Here is the updated comment in the history - lightly edited.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

*61 February 1868-1870, Paris-2: Reilly opens 2 rue Scribe, Paris as “E.M. Reilly & Cie”

Reilly’s triumph in Paris led him in February 1868 to open a branch office (EM Reilly & Cie.) at 2 rue Scribe, Paris where orders for his guns could be taken.*61a The store was located in the Grand Hotel near the Gare du Nord, a prime location (British travelers to Paris arrived at the Gare du Nord) facing "le Jockey Club" across the street.*61b, *61c, *61d This branch office remained open for the next 17 years.



. . . . .-- SN 14983 - The first extant gun with 2 rue Scribe on the rib is 14983, an 8 bore SxS under-lever, hammer gun shotgun (with a firing system very much resembling the earlier Lancaster "base-fire" action - other observers note that it was very like the Pape patent with retractable firing pins. Note: close-up photos of the barrel breeches show it probably was an original pin-fire converted to center-fire.*61e

The extant gun’s (modified) noseless hammers resemble the hammers pictured in Reilly ads for C-F guns at the time.*61f

. . . . .-- SN 15287 - A center fire 12 gauge shotgun hammer gun from this period, the second Reilly with the rue Scribe address on the rib, and with similar hammers (no photos available).*61g

Note: The French press in articles about Reilly in the 20th century has claimed that the artistic elegance and balance of a Reilly gun came from its association with Paris.*61h

This is a "Sanity Check." .47 caliber Reilly percussion double rifle SN 8422 is for sale in Germany. The name/address on the rib is "Reilly, 502, New Oxford Street, London." This gun's SN fits exactly with the chronology. It was numbered around September 1847. Reilly moved from 316 High Holborn to New Oxford Street on 25 March 1847.

This gun is interesting from a historical stand-point because of the case trade label. The label was created by EM Reilly to "spice up" the Reilly brand. Up until November 1847 existing Reilly trade labels were usually a simple business type card which for six months after the move carried the phrase "removed from Holborn." The case having this label but with a gun dated two months earlier is interesting but can be explained (see the date chart on p.57 and the label date chart on p.93-93 before the history). This may be the first extant Reilly SN'd gun with this label.

Note also the use of just "Reilly" on the rib...a post move change. There are also other Reilly characteristics...the excellent wood, the heavy pistol grip stock which characterizes his rifles (not his shotguns other than big bore wild fowlers).

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-...queryID=70d91c2c69b906be3f8835f7310330b2
Cal. .47(BlackPowder), SN. 8422, Gezogene Läufe, auf der Laufschiene Expressvisier sowie Signatur, graviertes Schwanzschraubenblatt. Perkussionsschlösser mit Rankengravuren und Hahnsicherungen. Halbschaft mit en suite gravierter eiserner Garnitur und Kolbenfach, Pistolengriff mit feiner Fischhaut. Metallteile patiniert, Alters- und Gebrauchsspuren. Länge 118 cm. In mit blauem, etwas bestoßenem Samt ausgeschlagenem Kasten, im Deckel Herstelleretikett und handgeschriebenes arabisches Etikett, darin u.a. Pulverflasche aus Messing, Pflasterstanze und Kugelzange. Kastenmaße 83 x 27 x 8 cm.

Cal. .47(BlackPowder), SN. 8422, rifled barrels, express sight on the barrel rail and signature, engraved tail screw blade. Percussion locks with tendril engravings and cock locks. Half stock with en suite engraved iron furniture and butt compartment, pistol grip with fine checkering. Metal parts patinated, signs of age and wear. Length 118cm. In a box lined with blue, slightly chipped velvet, the manufacturer's label and a handwritten Arabic label in the lid, inside, among other things, a brass powder bottle, plaster punch and ball pliers. Box dimensions 83 x 27 x 8 cm.

Very nice Reilly volunteer rifle here:

https://www.wilson55.com/auction/lo...alse&sd=0&pp=48&pn=1&g=1

Thank you sir. I noticed that gun, a classic 3 band Enfield 1853 "Rifle/Musket," and sent a comment to Wilson55 Auction. SN 11710 can be pretty precisely dated to November 1860 because of Reilly SN 11716 which was presented as a prize in Devonshire Christmas 1860. (Reilly prided himself at the time on delivering guns within 3 weeks of an order.)

(The Serial Number date chart has Reilly producing 450 SN guns in 1860. . the last being in theory 11800. That would be about 38 a month; this is obviously analysis given there are no extant records and can vary quite a bit. I'm inclined to move that last SN for 1860 back about 40 numbers after looking at these two rifles again).
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ting-competition---.cfm?gun_id=101246940



Based on the re-analysis the date chart has changed moving guns back by about 50 SN's, the termination SN for 1860 now being 11750.
-- In some aspects this is pretty significant for instance requiring moving the first Reilly C-F shotgun SN 14115 from mid 1865 to early 1866 (which does make sense given the developments in C-F shotgun primers in 1865).
-- 12532 - Aug ‘62 - Documented London exposition gun bought by Prince of Wales, which was exhibited in September 1862 should be numbered around August 1862. With the Prince of Wales feathers it was clearly ordered. It was exhibited in mid-September 1862 but likely was numbered earlier. The reworked chart now moves it to late-September, early-October.

Will work on this. . .juggling numbers around - a few 10's here minus some there - should fix it. (Wish the records would actually turn up). (Guess this is getting a bit of an obsession...whether the gun were numbered in June 1862 or October is really silly.)

This one is already included in your list, Gene, from when it appeared for sale at auction some years back. It is a 12-bore, serial number 15129, with bar locks, which would appear to be from 1868. It has rather fine laminated barrels, with Birmingham proofs, and a barrel maker’s stamp 'CJ'. There is a second serial number, 1039. It would appear the smaller number is from whoever made the gun in Birmingham, with the Reilly number affixed later. The gun weighs a tidy 6 lb 9 oz. I did not have a Reilly with bar locks in my collection, so it is mine now. I will write something a bit more detailed in the pin-fire thread, at some point. It was cased in an oak-and-leather case which might or might not be original, with pin-fire loading tools, and I believe a facsimile label (it is too nice).

Thanks Stephen. That is a very nice pin-fire Reilly and the chart does date it to 1868. It is a reproduction case label. Here was the original ad: (wonder if the 20 original Eley paper hulled rounds are still in the case?)
http://www.icollector.com/E-M-Reill...-Side-Shotgun-w-30-bbl-Circa-1_i23057034

This item SOLD at 2015 Aug 29 @ 03:29UTC-7 : PDT/MST

There are two very early Reilly Percussion guns for sale in UK, one SxS with 316 High Holborn address (1836-47) and one single barrel shotgun with the Holborn Bars address (1828-36). Both look to be in excellent shape. There are so few Reilly guns remaining from this time period that historically these could be quite important. I have so far been unsuccessful in getting the auction house to respond to queries about the serial numbers:

1.
https://www.easyliveauction.com/cat...ebruary-furniture-viewing-by-a-lot-1239/
(Looks to have an octagonal barrel)


I have a feeling this is 14 bore SN 162, the oldest known Reilly long gun in existence previously sold at Holts 2008 and again by Holts via proxibid 2014 (Sold for £500):
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-...ingle-barrelled-percuss-505-c-ehl7gdq0z4
https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=10247&aid=86974&lid=22392051

2.
https://www.easyliveauction.com/cat...ebruary-furniture-viewing-by-a-lot-1237/


This might be identical to a 10 bore previously sold by Holtis via proxibid in 2014 (Sold for £800) No visible SN:
https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/J-C-REILLY-LONDON/22392046/LotDetail.asp?lid=22392046

Edit: The Hawley Auction confirmed that these two percussion guns were indeed to ones sold at Holts in 2014, the single barrel being SN 162.