doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com And it is in proof!

From the Holt's Auction description:

April 2025 Sealed Bid : Sale S0425 Lot 6750
F.P. BAKER 12-BORE (2IN.) BOXLOCK NON-EJECTOR, serial no. 87991,
https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...425+++6750+&refno=222043&image=0

F.P. BAKER 12-BORE (2IN.) BOXLOCK NON-EJECTOR, serial no. 87991, dated 1937, 27in. nitro barrels (wall thicknesses at 6 (six) and 17, some pits), tubes engraved 'F.P. BAKER. 1. GOLDEN SQUARE. LONDON W.1.' narrow rib inlaid 'FOR 2 INCH CASE ONLY', 2in. chambers, bored approx. full choke in both, automatic safety, border and acanthus scroll engraving, 13 3/4in stock including 3/4in. rubber recoil pad

Holt's can not sell any gun out of proof unless the barrels are cut for sleeving. This gun is listed for sale as still being in proof at .006" and I do not doubt it is. They make very clear that the barrels are .006" to their credit. A soda can is .006" thick. Just think how lively that gun will be to shoot. Talk about taking your hand into harms way. You should be able to flex or dent your barrel in your hand. I do not care where .006" is it is way too thin for me. Proof does not mean safe. It means within limits of .008-.010 of metal thickness from the last passed proof event. And where could you put pits in a set of barrels .006 & .017" thick? I wont be bidding on this lot. Read and understand all descriptions before you bid is sound advise.

A boxlock NE, that is estimated at $50-$80. Parts, or, somebody has a set of 16 gauge full length inserts that are homeless. 2” chambers guns aren’t really setting the world on fire these days.

Just another old gun best hung over the fireplace.

Not a bad price for that duty.

Best,
Ted

A set of Briley 20 gauge tubes, $700 plus shipping and on and on, sling swivels, a recoil pad, no name, what do you have? Get serious. Those wild and crazy Brits. If it were a Purdey, they would still drill it out to .006. Who are these gun butchers who do that?

I've wondered that myself.

Weekly use of a dingleberry hone instead of a bore brush?

I think they are playing a bit fast and loose with the term “in proof”.

To be in proof at that .006” measurement, the gun would have been proofed at .016, at maximum. I’ve measured exactly zero 2” chambered 12s, but, know enough people that have to discover that .020 wall thickness and under, is not uncommon. If it was submitted for reproof, today, it would fail the “view” phase, if pits are present.

If it was submitted for reproof today and made it past view, it would be torn apart with the revised procedure.

I highly doubt it would make it past view.

Best,
Ted

Those barrels would not qualify as tomato stakes. Proof laws should not trump common sense

And yet they do.

Being in Proof is based on bore size, measured at 9", and has absolutely nothing to do with wall thickness. Still being in proof does not automatically mean safe to shoot. That is my point. We put too much stock in being in proof. Holt's absolutely would not list this gun for sale, as anything except stock, action and cut barrels for sleeving unless it is in proof. That does not mean safe to shoot. They would not risk the legal problems, just for a few pounds commission. That is why they went to great pains to make sure any potential buyer knows the barrels are .006". This is a sealed bid auction and barrel thickness is not commonly listed unless thin, or a potential issue.

Call it thick or thin, 2" guns were very thin barrels to start with and it might have been .015-.017" to begin with. And another issue is where is it thin? It is not that thin at 9" where the bore is gauged, measured for proof purposes, most likely. That area, 9", might have been .020+ when new and might be near that still in that area. The barrels have been honed to remove pits in one barrel which made that one area .006" after honing. The other barrel still is .017 which I suspect was the original barrel wall thickness when new and proofed. I bet the gunsmith removed the pits and measured the gun, then found .006" and stopped. Informed the owner who decided to just cut his loss and send it to the auction house.

Holt's measures every gun they sell and list any problems like this in the description. It is always buyer beware. Sealed bids in general are cripple guns, looking for a new sucker, to pour more money into them or pay off the last owner for a bad investment. A few gems are in the thousands of listings and the fun is in finding one. They tend to be tired, worn and in this case worn out. Or they are slow moving guns, with almost no demand for them in the gun trade. I see a ton of AYA guns, model 3's and 4's that are selling for 100-300 pounds, 2's selling for about twice that, that are solid guns, with a lot of life left in them. But consider the entire double market is under a clock running out in under five years. Shoot steel by then, or it becomes a paper weight, unless you can afford Bismuth at a buck a shell or more. The double market for all but the best quality is weak and about to have the bottom drop out of it.

My best sealed bid find was a Pape 20 gauge, Hammergun, 30" barrels, choked Mod and Mod, with "barrels below recommendation". Fancy speak for thin. The barrels were .019 at 26-27" on one barrel, everywhere else they were above .020". Everything else was perfect. Or a AYA Model 4, 20 gauge, 27" barrels, I/C and Mod, with what was described as a crack in the grip. The crack, was a crack in the finish and the rest of the gun was a solid 95%. Stock refinish was all I did and it has seen tons of Clay's without any issues. That one cost me well under a grand even with importing. Or a Remington 20 bore 1100 Sporting Clays model, which cost under $800, imported, in mint condition. But these are the exceptions, not the general run of the mill sealed bid fare. Too many of them are just like this 2" gun, but not so obvious or so far gone. Out of 20 plus sealed bid buys I have missed on just one gun and it was listed as a parts gun. I sold the trigger group, stock and barrel, that more than paid for my cost. Some guns are too far gone to save. Read and understand the descriptions, ask questions if not clear.

I beg to differ.

Show up at the proof house, with that gun, and it will fail view. This is because there are pits in a bore that is at the edge of being in proof to begin with. Since the rules were revised a few years back (one of you across the ponders help me out on the exact year, please) and the two proof rounds are fired in each tube, lots of old guns fail proof, even without pits or heavy lapping. .010” is the max deviation allowed upward from bore dimension at proof. You can bet your sweet ass that .006 wall, 9” from the breech, isn’t going to survive a current reproof, pits, or not. Wall thickness does actually matter.

They aren’t being honest. “In proof” implies the gun is sound. This one, isn’t.

Best,
Ted

Ted, two things. That gun is not .006" at 9" from the breech. That thin area is well down the barrels, near the muzzle. Second if the gun is in proof it does not require a trip to the proof house. There is no view in this case. I agree that this gun should not be shot, bought or even owned. But if it is within proof then it can be sold. Shot at the buyers risk. Proof is a bore related issue, not a wall thickness issue. And I think people put too much value on being "in proof", without any understanding what that really means. The pits remaining I bet are in the second barrel that was not honed. Why waste more money making that barrel paper thin?

Another thing buyers need to consider is that barrels can become thin by honing the inside, or striking the outside. Honing the inside will take a gun out of proof, if greater than .010" metal is removed at the 9" measurement location on the inside of the barrel. I also worry about a gun which has been filed heavily, to remove external pits for re-blacking just as much as one honed too much. Does it matter where the metal comes from? Hone a barrel or file the outside of a barrel, make them under .020" and I call them thin, do that to this .006" and I run away as fast as my little legs carry me.

People need to know "in proof" is no guarantee of safe to shoot. Know the wall thickness, the location of the thin area and then go from there. I do not care so much if a gun is in proof as long as the barrels are sound and have thickness greater than .020". I adjust my loads to make sure I do no harm to the gun or myself. Being technically in proof is a false security in this case. So what, it is thin as heck.