doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Gottfried Juch Borovlje - 1953

I was fortunate enough to acquire a Kombo in 16-70 & 8X57JRS w/ 60 cm tubes from 1953 by Gottfried Juch. Due to a possible Geographical error by the Allies, Suhl fell behind the Iron Curtain and could no more meet the demad of Frankonia, Geco, Kettner, etc. So Ferlach became the sourcing point and even those they really weren't allowed to make guns to say 1953, but one sees Borovlje wares for sale in circa 1950 via catalogues.












This must be one of Gottfried Juch's(not Just) 1st completed weapons as he advertised in 1954 technical publication, which was a celebratory effort to note the 75 Anniversary of the Technical School / Machinehaus????

There were a couple other Juch Büchsenmachers in Borovlje that acquired their Master Gunmaker's Sheepskin: Peter Juch in 1887 and Josef Juch in 1890. Peter made his last file stroke in 1922 in the Machinehas when he developed some serious illness. He had worked for 26 years in the craft @ the Machinehaus. So those odd, lone >>J<<s one see near the forend lug just make note tube effort by a Juch??



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Gottfried Juch did turn out @ least on 5 barrel weapon:




Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Jani makes an astute observation: 1st it was 8X57IR per the >>JR.<< stamp and circa 1955 when Ferlach migrated from IR to IRS it was converted to IRS, hence the odd S after the IR.



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Conversions of 8x57 IR to IRS were also made by German gunsmiths. Maybe Wolfgang or Mike could explain the methods used.

Cheers,
Jani

Jani,
I am given to understand that before announcing the change from 8x57I to 8x57 IS (military only) the Prussians had all their stock of M88 Commission rifles (and the early M98 Mausers chambered for 8x57I) inspected and the ones that had large enough neck diameter to safely fire the new ammunition were marked with an "S" and had the sight components changed to match the trajectory of the new ammo. The ones that did not have large enough neck diameter had that area reamed to the larger diameter, the sight components modified and marked with an "S". This was kept a secret at the time to prevent potential foes from taking military advantage during the "changeover". Consequently, civilian 8x57I and 8x57 IR rifles were not inspected/modified by the Prussian Government and neither were the rifles that had been provided to the Prussians allies. It is not known if or how many of these other rifles were subsequently modified by the allies or private gunsmiths. After the "Great War" and the Versailles Treaty, it has been reported that Mauser reamed the chambers of their 8mm barrels with necks large enough for the "S" bullets while the groove diameter was for the "I" bullets. With the knowledge of these previous procedures, some gunsmiths reamed the necks of "I" chambers to the "S" dimensions and/or "freshed out" the barrel to the larger diameter.
An alternate possible reason for the out of line "S" on Raimey's rifle could be that it was originally made as an 8x57JRS but had to be marked with two different stamps because a single stamp for 8x57JRS had not been acquired when they restarted operations after being closed down.
As an aside, the "I" diameter was always the normal diameter for hunting rifles until after WW2 and it has been shown that those rifles with a large enough chamber neck (shown by testing a case fired in that chamber to see if a .323" bullet will freely enter) can be used with the larger bullet because it is when the case neck is "jammed" into a chamber too small to release the bullet that causes excess pressure rather than the smaller barrel diameter, as found by the Prussians before WW1.
Mike

For some reason, these PPU 8X57IRS PSP 196 grain / 12,7 gramme rounds hit perilously low. I have shot about a box of them and they just hit low. Ignited about 1/2 dozen this afternoon & the average velocity was 704 m/s(published is 730 m/s & I didn't get anywhere close to that) and a fair spread.

Now the S&B version hits where you look, have a much smaller spread and had a mean velocity of 715 m/s vs 726 m/s published.

Any idea why the PPU cartridges consistently fall short?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

As an aside, I clocked the Gamebore Regal 16 bore cartridges @ 402 m/s.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

It is not uncommon for different brands of ammo to have different points of impact, even though the loads seem to be similar. Differences in velocity as well as differences in shape or material used in the bullets can combine to set up differing vibration patterns. With the next rifle, the points of impact between the two brands may be reversed.
Mike

So if I am going to handload, where might I source a bullet similar to the S&B?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Most of the 196 gr. .323" bullets are similar and I believe the PPU version is a good price. If you buy a good supply and work up an accurate load, you can sight the rifle in for that load. As long as you have the same bullet and powder, you won't have to change it unless something moves.
Mike