doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com **UPDATE** An 11.2x72 Schuler joins the family

Oh, so it has been confirmed by as a >>G<< and the below still applies:


>>„Einen anderen Prima Fried. Krupp gibt in den allgemein gebräuchlichen Gewehrlaufstahl – Qualitäten, das sind: Krupp’s Guss-Stahl zu Kugelläufen und Krupp’s Fluss-Stahl zu Schrotläufen, an andere Jagdgewehr-Fabrikanten keine besseren Marken ab, als an uns, sodass also die Bezeichnunb:

Prima Kurppscher Gewehrlauf-Stahl
Als nicht zutreffend bezeichnet werden muss.“<<

I guess the font of each text segment appears to be the same.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The apparent trade distinction between "Flußstahl" and "Gußstahl" (I am here purposely using the OLD orthography, which however also resolved the minuscule "ß" as a majuscule "SS" - the pressing aesthetic question of a potential capital letter "ß", itself an old ligature from handwriting times, is a beautiful quisquilia of German typographical debates), this distinction is a bit, how should I say it, un-intuitive, because in common layperson language, both would seem to mean the same.
But we would have to ask a German metallurgian (old term: Hüttenmann) about this, I guess. I have dutifully tried to educate myself via the German Wikipedia, but failed to comprehend the apparently subtle difference. :-/

Carcano

Oh, we fancy the antiquated Fratur, Waidmannssprachel, Old German for things Hunting and Calligraphy here. Actually I read 1800s Calligraphy almost daily where folk held to the European modell of value notation with a comma.

But the steel strength is the main reason for the Fluid for Scatterguns & Cast for Rifles. It must have been most difficult, or more difficult, to bore a larger scattergun diameter thru a rod of Cast Steel(Guß Stahl) after being converted from Bar Stock, where a pilot hole was drilled to form a rough, bored tube in Liège. Krupp, along with German Gunmakers, found trademark protection in Belgium and sourced the bulk of their rough bored tubes from the talented mechanics in Liège. So the Liège mechanics may have set the tone for which steel type married with which sporting platform.

One exception just may be Witten? But I know not where these were rolled before Mechanic Gottgetreu commenced his craft.

>>Diese Vervollkommnung der deutschen Flinten ist zum gro�en Teil der deutschen Stahlindustrie zu verdanken. W�hrend die deutschen Gewehrfabriken fr�her ganz auf die ausl�ndischen Damastl�ufe angewiesen waren verarbeiten sie heute ausschlie�lich die un�bertrefflichen, silberleinen, deutschen Stahll�ufe. Die besten L�ufe liefern die Kruppschen Werke unter dem Namen "Spezialgewehrlauf Stahl von Friedrich Krupp Essen" und die Stahlwerke in Witten unter der Marke "Excelsior Witten". An diese deutschen Edelstahl Sorten reicht kein ausl�ndisches Erzeugnis heran. Jedoch ist der weiche z�he Gewehrlaufstahl lediglich f�r Flintenl�ufe verwendbar w�hrend f�r B�chsl�ufe ein festerer h�rterer Stahl von Krupp Essen verarbeitet wird.
Kosmos 1906<<

I'll work on the missing characters that were not allowed on a previous platform here.

>>A most interesting tid-bit/golden nugget of info by Axel E. on the GGCA site centred around Witten tubes regarding mechanic Joh(?) Werner Gottgetreu of Suhl. Axel E. attributes the G encircled W surmounted by a cross as possibly that of Joh. Werner Gottgetreu & I believe him to be correct. Joh. Werner Gottgetreu obtained his master's sheepskin by 1845 & it would appear he attained that rank by 1840/1841. He departed this life in 1919. I'm sure the possibility exists there were 2 generations of Werner Gottgetreu as being active 80 years is a lengthy span. Anyway, more diggin' there and this may bring more questions than answers. But I'm curious if there are any Witten Excelsior tubesets pre-1919 that do not wear the G encircled W surmounted by a Cross and at what state he sourced the tubes? I had always associated the mark w/ the Witten steel mark, situated between HAL control mark & the steel type stamp, so it passed by without suspicion. <<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=445681

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Seems Witten Excelsior was a tad bit softer, with the addition of Phosphorus; hence the use for Scattergun Tubes.

>>Seems the Tiegelstahl - Qualitätsmarke Excelsior(Wittener Exzelsiorstahl) or crucible steel gained new ground by the turn of the 20th Century(mid to late 1890s?). It was akin to Wootz and may have met its match w/ the advent of the electric furnaces by WWI.<<

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stahlerzeugung#Historische_Verfahren

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I was searching for the typical Guß-Stahl Witten stamp, which would be for another thread, but I did find an advert from the 1930s for Edel - Baustähle for Ruhrstahl A.G. - Gußstahlwerke - Witten. Anyway, this just may prompt me to wad thru all the Daly threads again......


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I agree, I don’t believe the bolt is original, I don’t care for the font nor its application, it’s also not a 98a bolt, there is no flat on it. Curiously however, on earlier JP Sauer Mausers, I have observed bolts with a similar odd bend on more than one occasion, so there is a chance it is a “period” bolt of some sort but subsequently modified. Also as an aside, there are other sources for “flat bottom” bolts, namely Mauser Oberndorf during the last few years of their production, but the bend itself is not that of the Kar98a, and many of them feature an internal detent in the root.

Back to the rifle, retailer attributions aside, we know it went to South Africa.. as the Diamond U, is a military marking for out of service for the Union Defense Forces. The majority of these markings appear on Portuguese 1904 Mausers, but also Gewehr 98’s, Enfields etc, they had a hodgepodge of weapons due to their sourcing at the time. All in all, a semi original rifle, in a wonderful cartridge, and with a very cool history. I’ve been keeping track of it since it popped up in 2024. Maybe we can answer more of the questions we have on it in time.