doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com **UPDATE** An 11.2x72 Schuler joins the family

Hello Raimey, thank you firstly very much for your follow-up. As you may see above, I have tried to ameliorate my posting a bit (including the Troisdorfer Pulver Nr. 6).
But primarily, I have re-examined my feelings or guesses about the time of the original proof (which need NOT - not at all - conincide with the production of the gun itself). There are but few specialists who can reliably assess the older style (pre-1939) of German proof stamps, and I would not really count myself among them. The 'Net has now added or unearthed a lot of previously forgotten knowledge, but most of it is hidden in widely spread postings in various fora, and deep within several websites. I have linked to one now (a multiply compiled GGCA webpage on August Schüler / Richard Schüler / ASS).

After the first or initial production, the gun was definitely still reworked some more. The former blade rear sight was taken out, its space in the barrel rib was filled up, as one can see, and instead this rear part was substituted by a furher rearward Lyman diopter. We cannot (or at least I do not) know whether that happened in Germany, in the Netherlands, or in the USA. The mere fact that the Lyman rear sight is "old" (how old exactly?) as such, says nothing about *when* it was mounted. That it may also have been used in the past (rarely!) in Germany, is true, but back then, it would be (very) atypical for a "dangerous big game" rifle, such as this.

The cushioned butt plate looks almost too fresh to be true. I would expect, even with very little use, a bit more age effect, were it really as old as the gun. It is far _more_ stylish though, than the new, icky bright orange or brick red "English" rubber buttplates that are so popular today.

Lastly, the bolt. That one is really is an issue of contention, and a triple or quadruple issue at that.

1. The bolt is NOT among those forms that I would expect or would have seen in the (comparatively few) Schüler rifles that have been reported and depicted variously by now, nor matches the advertisements. Neither in most Mauser rifles (and there are always the pesky exceptions). The characteristic Mod. 98 sporting or hunting rifle bolts have a diffent curvature and length of their bolt handles, or might have a flat spatula handle (Kammerlappen, flacher Kammergriff) altogether.

2. The bolt is in fact an ex-military Karabiner 98 AZ (later: Karabiner 98a) bolt. The bolt handle is very typical of this gun (or its Polish successor). Whether it was overproduction (which gunsmiths were able to "procure" cleverly quite early even in the very first decades of the Mod. 98) or leftover from the Great War or even later, I can not say. But Schüler certainly used military parts for building his guns.
2a. The bolt is almost unused, see the bolthead face.

3. The jewelling (Sonnenschliff) of the bolt side and / or the extractor is IMO (I may be wrong) quite unusual in early German rifles. For me, it screams "later".

4. Maybe most important, but we need an experienced longtime Mod. 98 military collector to be the arbiter on this often hot issue:
The flat of the bolt handle (where it meets the bolt body) appears definitely too new for me. Discerning Kar98k kollektors experience this all the time. It was filed, polished and matchingly re-stamped, I would say. Also, the number font in the "862" is ever so slightly *different* from the cipher font of the other serial numbers on this gun. Very minute, indeed, but perceptible.

Yes, it is not "impossible'" that ASS could have used a lie-around Karabiner 98AZ bolt, but _this_ one would definitely have been altered and reworked later. There are many potential reasons for this, and your guess is as good as mine.

Regards from Southwest Germany,

Carcano

Thank you Carcano,

I appreciate your taking the time to post such detailed information, and giving your opinions about my rifle.
So my questions continue: 1. Who built the rifle? ... 2. When was it made?

Subject longarm proof stamps

4000 Atmosphärenpulver Test Below






>>Crown - Crown over N - 2,6g G.B.P. /(over) St. m. G.<<






https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...mp;Words=4000&Search=true#Post649752


I am inclined to believe that the platform wears the 4000 Atmosphärenpulver Test, or some variant thereof.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Elaborate dissection of each component of the platform via your monocle of time. I may to try to draw in Steve Whitley and see if he will chime in on it.

If you are going to dabble in the realm of the Troisdorfer powder, for the most part that found favour with Collath & his doings...


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

1. Mostly likely the firm of August Schüler, at that time already under the real or even nominal direction of Richard. No other realistic candidate. The barrel maker can be found out, and maybe one of our usual suspects :-* in the various fora could help in this quest. Axel? Raimey? Mike Ford? Algmule? Hendrik? Lancaster? Also, the "U with rhombus" signet is one that I must have seen at one time. This too can be deciphered eventually.

2. Time frame (FRAME) of the proof stamp can be more reliably guessed by my betters. Probably as an "after, but before" frame.

3. It would be worth the sweat of the noblemen (German idiom) to compile all the posted photos of various Schüler rifles on the 'Net, in their respective proprietary chamberings, over the last 25 years or so, including their serial numbers, and then to compare them, and try to establish patterns and/or changes. Catalogues and advertisements can also help a bit, but only a *BIT*, since they very frequently illustrate but intent and dream. ("Yes, we *could* possibly produce this gun in this calibre if enough people were really interested...").

4. I have no idea what happened with (or to) Harald Wolf's collected sources and archival materials on Schüler, after his death 2019, but I sincerely hope some aficionado has eventually taken care of them... hope he does not hover over them like Smaug (Fafnir for Wagnerians).

Carcano

"Dabble" is probably the right verb. Propellant history is a separate and arcane field of research. I guess one should approach the grand master Wolfgang Seel for the factory histories (his new ammunition, or rather "munitions" book !!) and the IAA for the loadings. The two "Schießtechnische Handbücher" of RWS only list a few loads with Troisdorfer Nr. 1910 und Nr. 1912 (while far more of their cartridges have "R" Rottweiler powders).

Carcano

I think Gerhard Wirnsberger's text is still quite applicable but it has to be taken for it's position in time. His effort is a „Snap-Shot“ in time of a proof process which also was a series „Snap-Shots“ in time defining the process of Protecting the Public with regards to Sporting Weapons, over time. But almost every phrase, if not every word, has to be dissected similar to your efforts of this purported >>Schüler<< Bolt Gun. It just takes time to digest it and dissect it. Folks now want a push button world via AI and very specific answers out to the nano-metre realm.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I totally agree on the >>Sonnenschliff<< as Dietrich Apel always told me that such an effort was that of a Z-M mechanic & was to „Cover - Up“ shotty work or something similar.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

What about the misspelling of „Fluß“ Stahl¿ Where does that fall in the scheme of things¿

Are you a Carcano fanatic, dabbled in the Kennedy Assassination or just fancy a 7,35 mm genoß/bullet¿

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Just a misreading.
It's GUSS there, not FUSS.
Just peruse again, attentively.

Carcano