doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com August Jung Viernau-5.6x61R vom Hofe Super Express

Some kind soul graciously allowed me to take this August Jung Viernau - Thueringen retailed 5.6x61R vom Hofe Super Express War Trophy off their hands.


62 cm tubeset w/ 36 cm LOP





5,5mm
61mm
539
891
5,1 gramme bullet(K.m.G.)



Krupp up top & Böhler Spezial on the bottom.


Blitz Platform w/ Non- Auto Safety



Any starting load data coupled with a bullet weight & diameter would be most appreciated¿

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Assembled Kombo weighs 3.03 kg & tubeset weighs 1,461 grammes, but of course there isn't a weight stamp.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Looks like a beautiful and high quality gun.

Indeed & all the Kombos have 62 cm tubeset length, are quite similar in shape & form, have the 1/2 Pipe Side-Frame Reinforcement & according to Axel E. they were made by Christoph Funk, but the bulk of them passed thru the Z-M Proof Facility and one just doesn't see Christoph Funk's mark. Of course it could be hidden & gearing up for the 2nd Major Disagreement in Europe, the Suhl Proof Facility might have been very busy with instruments of War?

Axel E. also notes the following:


>>The DEVA once listed two pressure tested loads:
70 gr Hornady, 51.5 gr IMR 4831 for 3540 fps
77 gr Gehmann original, 53.2 gr IMR 4831 for 3500 fps
As the cartridge is known for Secondary Explosion Effects, downloading is advised against.<<

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Too, most of Z-M stamped touchmarks I have viewed give a 5,1 gramme(79 grains) projectile. I realize there's not a huge difference to the 70 grain. I guess maybe the bullet weight & powder charge were the same number, just move the decimal, just to make things easy?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Slug the bore, grooves will likely be either .227" or .228". This will be somewhat of a problem, if you use bullets made for 2,800 fps 22 Savage HP, limit velocity to 3,000 fps. Do not use slow powder for the lower velocity loads. Cases will also be problematic. With your connections, see if you can find some 6.5x62R or the more available 6.5x65R cases. Failing that, 7x65R will work, but forming them will likely lead to pretty high losses. If you use 7x65R and run low, I can help out. The friend that "bumped up" heavy .224" bullets to .228" does not do this for the public, so I can't give it out. If he sees this and reaches out to you, great. BillK is right, it is a really nice gun.
Good luck,
Mike

Ford:

Thanks & I have proper brass & some bullets along with dies that I had stuck back as about 20 years ago I was on the cusp to acquire one but the fella unexpectedly died & his 2nd wife dispersed everything. Actually I had the rifle for some time getting ready to load some ammo for him. Just need to find them & up see what I have. I tried & tried to get some ammo, but it is like Hen's teeth.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I have read that some have used Nobel No. 0 powder years ago w/ the 70 grain bullet & H870 for the 77 grain.

Hofe originally advertised the 5,6X61 Vom Hofe Express as pushing a 77 grain bullet w/ 54 grains of Rottweil powder @ 3707 ft/s. I do wonder which Rottweil??

How would a choice of Vihtavuori N165 or N560 strike you???


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I believe the 3707-fps velocity was for the rimless version, and the rimmed version was advertised at 3400 + (I didn't take time to look it up, but it doesn't make much difference, I don't recall anyone getting that with a chronograph). As I recall, I got around 3250fps with the bumped up 80 grain bullets. I didn't feel confident enough to go beyond that, I didn't want to lose the rifle. I used 4350, I don't know much about Vihtavuori powders. If I had to do it again, I think I would find someone with a ballistics program to run it. If the program didn't include the max pressure for 5.6x61R, I would use the one for 7x65R which I believe was 46500 psi CUP. When you said you have proper brass, do you mean original factory cases. If so, do you have Berdan primers also? If you find out the Rottweil powder was R5, that will give us something else to go on. I think they stopped loading the ammo in the early 70s, I can remember Waffen Frankonia having some "in stock" while I was there the first time, but I didn't have the rifle then. By then to be legal for large game the cartridges not only had to meet energy requirements (1440 fp) but also had to be 6.5mm.
Mike
t

So, IMR 4350?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

In the last RWS handbook of 2002 (9th ed.), the rightly famous "Blue Bible", the two recommended propellants were R 907 and R 904. While R 905 was emphatically warned about, as dangerous.

Carcano

Many Thanks. Actually my middle name is „Dangerous“ , so I'll go w/ R 905. Any idea of a starting load¿

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, At the time Gene started loading IMR 4350, many of the current powders didn't exist. It still works, but that doesn't mean none of the newer powders will. I don't know the color code of the chart and I don't know what powders you have in your cabinet. If you blow up a rifle, try to pick one that is not as nice as the Jung.

Don't worry as I will keep it Civil as I really like my Fingers. Ah, if I don't have the powder, more than likely I can get it. But I am looking more towards something with a similar burn rate to the Original Powder; maybe >>Normale Ladung 3,2g Spezialpulver<<. I wonder what Spezialpulver might have been......

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

And too, I would like to stay on within the VV line of powders as I have o'plenty of Brown Paper Bags of VV Powder.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

As always I am a bit pressed for time on all sides, so I may just ferry it to you and see what we come up with regarding the cartridge. What Chrony do you have?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Any idea of how closely aligned the 220 Swift & the 5,6X61R vom Hofe might be?



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Ford:


Below is the colour scheme code, which will negate yet another unknown.




Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thank you, Raimey.

Not useful.

Too Amurrican.

Ah, I never said it was useful. Just something pictorial. I hate to watch videos by the way. I had rather just read. It just like all those websites you visit & each asks >>DoYou Have 18 Years???<< Then the next window is give us all your info including bank account & SS # and we'll give you 15% off.... Always some Ad in your face....

But I think some progress may lie w/ the 220 Swift w/ a 1:8 twist? What if you did initially use some 0.224 bullets? Would that couple thou add a little safety factory?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Any rate, in reading some give the 5,6X61mm to have a velocity 1130 m/s with some type of Aluminum casing and others give say 3500 ft/s for a 77 grain bullet.

Whilst the 5,6X61R is give a velocity about 200 m/s slower @ 920 m/s, which obtainable or more realistic.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

But what puzzles me is that all but one of the examples I have viewed passed thru the Z-M Proof Facility vs the one that passed thru the Suhl Proof Facility. Some were in the final state as the one below & the initials >>GS<< are very, very common on many including tip-up versions.



This August Schueler was retailed by a Berlin Retailer Waffen Scherell and has Cats engraved on it so some say it was a High Hill Cat Gun?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The 220 Swift and the 5.6x61R were intended for drastically different purposes (varmints vs big game) and neither one of them won the popularity contest for that purpose. The Secondary Explosion Effect Is not something that is limited to a particular caliber or a couple thousandths difference in bullet diameter. The first I heard if the "SEE" was by Jack O Connor with regard to the 270 Win. At the time, the examples were with the .270 smaller than "starting loads "of slow burning powder (in the 270's case 4831). This has been under contention since because no one seems to be able to duplicate the effect, at will, under controlled conditions; yet there are several reports of uncontrolled cases. Considering the potential costs of uncontrolled incidents, it just makes sense avoid the conditions most people think cause "SEE", unless something else is proven to cause it. It might make more sense to compare 5.6x61 with 5.6x57(big game) and 220 Swift with 22-250 (varmints), while understanding that all four can be loaded for big game or varmints. On the other hand, the choice to buy a particular rifle is more likely to depend on the availability of the rifle and components and especially the individual's particular interests than a comparison between different cartridges.
Mike

Raimey,
In your above discussion of velocity and aluminum casings, do you mean aluminum cartridge casings or aluminum gun case? I don't know of aluminum cartridges used at the time. Your rifle is chambered for 5.6x61R but the Waffen Scherell (photo above) is 5.6x61 (rimless, as it is a bolt gun), these are different cartridges. Please don't get the loading data for the two mixed up.
Mike

Raimey, COTW 4TH PG 265 gives bullet wt. 70 grn spire point in front of 44.0 grns of 4350 producing 3000 fps. cases can be made from 9.3 x74R. Details provided in Donnelly's manual of cartridge conversions. Note; similar to .22 savage high power.

Worry Not Ford as I watch my Ps & Qs. With or Without a R is the question on the vom Hofe Super Expreß

https://naboje.org/en/node/2128

Without an R
>>Lovecký náboj zavedený v Německu 1937 jako odpověď na náboj .220 Swift. Laborován speciální střelou s hlinikovou kuklou 5.0 g, Vo 1130 m/s, Eo 3200 J. Byl to úspěšný náboj pro lov lehké zvěře na velké vzdálenosti. Má malý avšak stabilní okruh ctitelů a je doposud vyráb<<

>>Laborován speciální střelou s hlinikovou kuklou 5.0 g, Vo 1130 m/s, Eo 3200 J. <<
It is this phrase - Aluminum Case - Aluminum Cap - Aluminum Hood - Aluminum Shell---- Choose your Demons.....

>>Lab Tested w/ a special bullet with an Aluminum casing - cap - hood - Shell<<????


https://naboje.org/en/node/4557#

With an R(that was 920 m/s by the way not 930 m/s)

>>Tento náboj je obdobou náboje 5,6 x 61 Super Expres vom Hofe. Byl zaveden v roce 1937. Je určen pro kulovnice s lůžkovým závěrem. Vzhledem ke konstrukci zbraní pro tento náboj je jeho výkon snížen omezením maximálního povoleného tlaku.

Střela o hmotnosti 4,60 g má počáteční rychlost 920 m/s.<<

Well, IMR -4350 sure is fetching a hefty sum these days.

Say you were to choose a powder with a similar burn rate, would you go slower or higher within a similar burn rate band for the 5,6X61R vom Hofe Super Expreß??



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Hart & that pairs well with the 920 m/s from above.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Back to the common >>GS<< initials near the forend hanger or near the proof touchmarks, I am going to hazard a guess it was Gottlieb Schlegelmilch. Although there are mechanics like Georg S. & Gustav S. that may have been active during the pre-WWII period.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Thanks to Wolfgang in locating Brass & Bullets, albeit in Germany.

https://www.grauwolf.net/wiederladen/huelsen/5,6x61r_vom_hofe.html


https://www.grauwolf.net/228-5-8-mm-77-gr-5-0-g-degol-starkmantel-hohlspitz-geschosse-50-stueck.html

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>Laborován speciální střelou s hlinikovou kuklou 5.0 g, Vo 1130 m/s, Eo 3200 J. <<

I have it on good authority from a mechanic that this text means:

Loaded with a Spezial Bullet w/ an Aluminum Jacket - 5,0 grammes, Velocity 1130 m/s, Energy 3200 Jules.

Now this is for the 5,6X61 vom Hofe Super Expreß without a R. Not sure how it applies to the 5,6X61R Super Expreß with a R¿¿¿

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Without a R.....

>>Ernest August Vom Hofe was an assistant to Hermann Gerlich in Danzig during the 1920s. He then moved to Leipzig with Wilhelm Brenneke.

In the early 1930s he founded the company HOFMANN Waffen und Munition (formed by HOFMANN and Richard Schienmann) in Berlin to build his own high-velocity cartridges and rifles - based on Mauser actions.

In 1935 Schiemmann left the company, which was renamed "Vom Hofe Waffen und Munition".

Exported in significant quantities to the United States between the two world wars, they virtually disappeared with the death of their creator in 1945. However, the names and models are continued to this day by Walter Gehman of Karlsruhe and later Stuttgart.

Until 1939, the ammunition was physically manufactured by DWM. Later, it was manufactured by various German manufacturers, but always branded as Vom Hofe. Since 1962, Stoeger Arms has been importing these weapons and ammunition into the United States.

Today's rifles are based on the Husqvarna-Mauser action.

This cartridge was introduced in 1937. Based on the 6.5x55 Swedish, it is the second in the family after the introduction of the 7x73. Although officially introduced in 1937, some cartridges manufactured by DWM bear the NN marking, indicative of 1933. In 1956, Gehman began marketing it again, manufactured by the IWK. After the disappearance of this firm in 1972, Norma and later Wolfgang Remy continued manufacturing. Production by the latter firm, which began in 1990, is distinguished by the marking W. Gehman V. Hofe 5.6x61. An identical model is produced except for the flanged cartridge case, the 5.6x61R Vom Hofe .<<

https://old.municion.org/VomHofe/5_6.htm

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

With a R......

>>Ernest August Vom Hofe was Hermann Gerlich's assistant in Danzig during the 1920s. He then moved to Leipzig with Wilhelm Brenneke. In the early 1930s, he founded the firm HOFMANN Waffen und Munition (formed by Hofe and Richard Schienmann) in Berlin to manufacture his own high-velocity cartridges and rifles based on Mauser actions. In 1935, Schienmann left the company, which was renamed "Vom Hofe Waffen und Munition."

Exported in significant quantities to the United States between the two world wars, they virtually disappeared with the death of their creator in 1945. However, the names and models are continued to this day by Walter Gehman of Karlsruhe and later Stuttgart.

Until 1939, the ammunition was physically manufactured by DWM. Later, it was manufactured by other German manufacturers, but always marked Vom Hofe.

The cartridge is based on the 6.5x55 Swedish and is the third in the family following the introduction of the 7x73 and the 5.6x61. Although officially introduced in 1937, some cartridges manufactured by DWM bear the NN marking, indicative of 1933. In 1956, Gehman returned to market it, manufactured by IWK. After the company's demise in 1972, Norma continued production. Its success has always been less than that of its "brother," the 5.6x61 Vom Hofe , and it appears to have disappeared from the market during the 1990s.<<

https://old.municion.org/VomHofe/5_6R.htm

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Oh, really...
Good propellant was made by Vectan (initially, Tubal 8000), new cases by Horneber / Johannsen and SHM (Zirngiebl), proper bullets by HDB and Aero. Two informative threads on the two German hunting webboards (somewhat opinionated, alas...) yield information.

Unequivocally Indeed. Just what do our Fine German Loquacious Friends say? Most of what I have read on the WWW is he said / she said stuff just being parroted again & again & no one really knowing any true specifics? Most of it is gloom & doom with caution, caution, caution that when you get to the where the sunsets(don't go there by the way) the world drops off into a chasm and a lot of Dragons be there?

I am a realist by the way and fancy fact found specifics. No um Artificial Emergencies with me.....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

But I forgot to look in Dixon & that is where most of the credible info seems to have its origin.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, Dixon don't have much to say on it. Donelly suggests 35 grns of 4895 on the rimless & 44 grns of 4350 for the rimmed version @ 3000 fps he doesn't give velocity for the rimless. he does mention Historical dated cited by E. Vom Hofe in 1937

Nope.
Mistranslated. It means "aluminium hood", and with regard to the jacketed lead core bullet, this either refers to a (maybe hollow?) cap, or a (massive) starter tip.

The values given are advertisement fantasies from the late 1930 and 1940s. Maybe shot from 80 cms test barrels... Unanimously dismissed by German hunters.

Carcano

Well, I will get back to all that. Apparently the 2nd Custodian of the Jung War Trophy was a >>Silver Star<< recipient(3rd Highest I think?). Fantastic story right here @ Memorial Day. The family of the Silver Star recipient has sent an information packet that is to accompany the Jung Kombo chambered in 5,6X61R vom Hofe Super Expreß(they thought 22 Hornet).



My paternal Grandfather was in the >>Battle of the Bulge<< as a Cook as he couldn't stay on the straight & narrow. I am the only Grandson & I had to buy all less one(my choice) of his guns & stuff @ Pawn Shop Appraised Prices from his 3rd Wife. I just cannot fathom how a family could let this stuff go....

Anyway, copies of select pages of „the Static Line“ 505th Parachute Infantry rag were included.

One hilarious headline is „Boche Bungle Belgian Bulge“

But I am privileged, as well as honoured, to be the Custodian of a firearm of such a recipient.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Captain Maness had 6 Battle Stars, Combat Infantryman's Badge as well as a Purple Heart. And don't think in the dead of night he backed into a hen-house and got spurred by a Rooster(Andy Griffith Episode).


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

And 2 fotos neatly tucked away in the packet(difficult to mitigate the reflections...)....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Neat Stuff!! Proudly be the good custodian to that jewel!

Yeah Hart, my middle name just may be „Dangerous“, but I for sure won't be igniting R 905 in it. You know, I think that secondary issue might be due to powder volume. If the powder is somewhat loose short of the neck without any filler, then the powder could flash along the sides and then ignite the powder column in the centre.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Major Maness just may not have had an heirs or assigns and that was the reason all his War Trophy stuff was liquidated?? No, he did have @ least one daughter & she sold the whole lot in 2014.....





Maness joined was somehow associated with the US Army in 1936-1937. Then he rejoined in 1941 and earned his keep starting in Oudja, Afrika in 1943. Later he was @ Normandy, then Holland and on to the Battle of the Bulge where in December 1944, he was promoted to Major. His last stint was as an occupation force in Berlin.



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Unfortunately, his Paratrooper Jump Jacket, Jump Boots, Parka, BYF-43 P-38 w/ original holster, extra mag, 7mm German rifle, etc. were all parted a couple dealers back in time.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I think the "aluminum hood' (which makes sense) would be an aluminum tip in American English as in "silver tip" Winchester ammo. Dixon's was written for collectors and does not contain any ballistic information, much less loading data. It is true that cases can be made from 9.3x74R, but actual measurement shows actual head diameter is less than 7x65R, which itself is smaller than 5.6x61R. I don't have either 6.5x65R or 6.5x62R to measure but am informed that either one would be closer to 5.6x61R. Bertram and similar commercial cases almost always show "not in stock" and usually unreasonably priced. To load the 70 grain 22 HP bullet to 3,000 fps I consider IMR 4895 better than 4350, because reducing the 4350 load that much puts it into the area everyone cautions about and 4895 is a medium burning rate powder while the cautions are for slow burning rate powders. The reason to limit the 70gr bullet to 3,000 fps was it was for a 2,800-fps cartridge and did not give acceptable accuracy over 3,000 fps. If there was a 70-gr bullet intended for higher velocity, it would not need to be limited. We have to be careful with this cartridge because it is easy to mix up data for the rimless and rimmed versions, the old, published velocities are questionable and predate the common availability of chronographs. Most of us trying to match the old velocities with actual chronographic results have found it unwise, if not impossible. If anyone can figure it out with the modern powders and bullets, wonderful. Let the rest of us know the answer.
Mike

Ford, it is most easy to distinguish one cartridge from the other: one version has a R(Rand-Rim) and the other does not. Quite simple herein.

Serbis,

Raimey
rse

Thanks to Wolfgang for some credible info:

>>vom Hofe cartridges have always held an exclusive top position among hunting rifle cartridges,
similar to a Lamborghini among automobiles.

Mr. von Hofe had been employed by Halbe and Gerlich (Halger) in Danzig and then by Wilhel Brenneke in Leipzig.
In 1931 Mr. vom Hofe brought out the new hunting rifle cartridge under the designation 7x73 Hofe-Mann Super Express,
followed by the 6x61.5 Hofe-Mann Express. Ammunition was manufactured by DWM. Weapons in Suhl by the Funk company.

In 1937 the small 5.6mm v.Hofe Super Express followed with but also without rim.

During the last years of the war, vom Hofe was employed by the Reich Aviation Ministry and in this context in Peenemünde.
He died on May 4, 1945 in Rechlin/Pomerania.

But the history of the vom Hofe cartridges did not end there.
In 1956, Walter Gehmann acquired the company name and the associated rights.
From 1942 to 1945, Gehmann worked at IWK as head of the Infantry Ammunition Department.
Gehmann was already world champion in 300 meter rifle shooting (Lucerne) in 1929.
He was also German champion 24 times.
The 7x73 was developed from the 300 Holl & Holl.
The 6x61mm was probably designed to compete with the .244 HV Magn. Halger.
With a 6.5 gram, this cartridge achieved a muzzle velocity of 1028 m/sec. from a 65 cm barrel.
Both calibers were not successful. The reason for this was the experiment with the 5.6 mm caliber that had already begun at the time.

In 1937 the 5.6 Super Express appeared, which has remained practically unchanged in configuration and ballistics to this day.
From 1938, this cartridge appeared with the newly designed Teilmanel bullet with a spiked aluminum tip.
Even then, the jacket consisted of 90 % Cu and 10 % Zn, the so-called tombac.

In 1941 Gehmann developed the 7x66 Super Express.
Roy Weatherby had similar ideas at the same time in faraway California.
Weatherby developed his high-performance cartridge series in rapid succession from 1942 onwards.

Gehmann resumed work on the 7x66 in 1954.
He initially used the .404 Jeffery case.
The shoulder angle was 60 degrees.
Loaded with a 10 gram partial and full metal jacket bullet.
With a powder chamber of 5.54 cc, the case of the 7x66 S.E. still has a high level of capacity even today in this Kaiberg group.
a high degree of capacity (for comparison: 7x64 = 3.71 cc).

Work on the 7 mm rim project began in 1957.
The 8x75R Behr was retracted to the 7mm caliber.
The shoulder angle here was 50 degrees.
Another change was made at the beginning of the 60s.
The case neck was changed to 10.3 mm and the angle to 30 degrees.
The 9.3x74R was now used as the main receiver.

In the mid-50s Gehmann began to develop its own bullet,
as all conventional partial jacket bullets in high-performance cartridges often failed miserably in hard target resistance.
The result was the so-called stop-ring bullet made of tombac.
The 8 gram stop-ring bullet developed was intended for killing medium-sized cloven-hoofed game.
It was therefore obvious to add a correspondingly heavier counterpart for heavy cloven-hoofed game.
It was not until 1962 that the 11 gram stop-ring bullet with a two-part lead core was released.
This had a 3.8 mm high steel ring located directly below the separation plane between the two lead cores.
between the two lead cores.
This meant that there were now two stop-ring bullets available to hunters.
Stop-ring bullets have no longer been manufactured since 1972.
The IMK had given up ammunition production.

At the end of 1963, Gehmann turned his attention to a 6 mm ammunition based on the 7x66.
The result was the 6x66 v.Hofe Super Express.
With a shoulder angle of 50 degrees.
In 1965/66, mainly 6.5 gram bullets were tested in it.
Nosler Partition, Remington Core-Lokt and DWM-Starkmantel.
Propelled with 5.1 gram Norma 205 ( today MRP ) powder, the cartridge achieved 1160 m/sec.
with 70 cm long barrels. The velocities were measured 25 meters in front of the muzzle.

These values showed that the 6x66 v.Hofe SE could have been an excellent all-round cartridge.
With a powder capacity of 5.62 cc, it ultimately delivered even more favorable ballistic data than the 6.5 x 68 (5.18 cc).

Because the use of ammunition in a caliber of less than 6.5 mm on cloven-hoofed game (except roe deer) has since been prohibited in the Federal Republic of Germany, Gehmann regrettably abandoned this excellent cartridge, which, by the way, had proven itself very well in foreign hunting practice.

In this context, it should also be mentioned that at the time. (1965 / 66 ) the test firing
at the IWK were carried out by a Mr. G. Freres.
The very same man who in 1984 publicized a 6x62 Freres cartridge that was apostrophized as a “high performance cartridge”<<
Forced Translation.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I shall add a small detail for the rimmed 5,6x61R, namely that its uncommon case today is preferably re-formed from the .30 R Blaser (available since 1991).

Carcano

Raimey,
Of course, it is very easy to tell the difference between the rimmed and rimless versions of the cartridges when they are both "in hand". The problem comes in when other people cite ballistics or loading data of the 5.6x61 without clearly showing the difference. You can hardly match the advertised ballistics of the correct cartridge and trying to get the 5.6x61 von Hofe SE velocity from a 5.6x61R vom Hofe SE will likely cause problems. Your discussion of the need for "harder" bullets is precisely the reason we had to limit the 70 gr 22HP bullets to 3,000fps or less to obtain acceptable groups.
Mike

Carcano,
You are absolutely right about the preferred case for the 5.6x61R. The problem is that they are much less available than 7x65R in the US. I would be happy to change to them, If I could find them at a reasonable price. My rifle came with cases formed from 30-06 Rimmed (which I am using) and from Berdan primed 8x60R (which I have retired). We use the best cases we can find that are satisfactory. For the rimless version, many people start with 25-06.
Mike

from several different savage 22 high power efforts over the years, i can relate the experience that the speer 70 grain semi-spitzer (@.228) is much more frangible than the hornady 70 grain spire point (@.227). these were the choices for 22hp that were readily available. i believe the norma bullet was midway between them - but never found those bullets available as components.

doubtlessly german sources would provide bullets better suited for high velocity, but if experiments with cheaper stuff is useful i would search for the hornady.

best regards,

tom

I have recently learned that Northern Precision is now making .228" bullets in 60 to 80 grain weights, and I believe with different jacket thickness and bonded or non-bonded cores to accommodate both 22 Sav. HP and 5.6x61 vom Hofe shooters. I have not tried these bullets and cannot verify their quality nor criticize them. They can be found at:www.npcustombullets.com .
Mike

Ford, it is most easy to discern between the 5,6X61 vom Hofe and the 5,6X61R(Rand) vom Hofe: One has a Rim(Rand) & one does not. Sort of akin to a dog w/ a tail & a dog without a tail....



I finally found my brass & dies plus I have some Rimless so I need to source a bolt gun.....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
The box is marked 5.6x57R, Is the rifle 5.6x61R vom Hofe or 5.6x57R? Are you looking for a 5.6 x 57 or 5.6x 61 vom Hofe bolt gun? I think I have some fired 5.6x57 cases, if you need them and maybe some 5.6x57R also. I can stake you to some 5.6x57 ammo to check your handloads against. The biggest advantage goes to the 5.6x57 over the 5.6x61 vom Hofe (both rimmed and rimless) because it uses .224" bullets and a common case head diameter. BTW, I noticed two of the fired cases have the unique venturi shoulder. This is more common on the 7x66 vom Hofe, than the 5.6 x61.
Mike

Ford:

Just seeing if you are paying attention. Yes, the rifle is stamped 5,6X61R but about 20+ years ago someone proffered me several boxes of the aforementioned 5,6X57R thinking those would bridge the gap in a Vom Hofe and those were the brass for which I was searching for but do not fit in well with what I am trying to do. How difficult it is to put a Rim on a Rimless??? I am quite confident I have a handful of 5,6X61R laying about somewhere plus I still need to order some of the bullets you posted & referenced.


Anyway, this copied text from an ancient post by Axel E. go a long way in explaining just why Chr. Funk is purported to have made all but one of the Vom Hofe chambered weapons. Remember, eons ago, Thieme & Schlegelmilch(Nimrod Gewehrfabrik Mitbegründer des Römerwerkes in 1888) as a founding partner in of the formidable shop and heavy lifter Römerwerk/Röhmerwerke by Jacob Romer / Rohmer. By 1900 Ernst Schlegelmilch was @ the helm & then by 1930 Ernst Schlegelmilch sold the concern to Alfred Funk who had Ernst Funk as a partner or something. Ernst Funk pulled up stakes by 1936, and I think everything was dissolved, but Alfred Funk pressed on filling orders with the two compagnies..... Wild & Rampant Speculation mind you.

>>You should read Peter Ravn Lund's book "Christoph Funk - Gewehrfabrik Suhl"(available from the GGCA bookstore), pages 28 - 29. Thieme & Schlegelmilch was not simply "absorbed" by Chr.Funk, the story is a bit more complicated. It is important to add Chr. to the Funk name, as there were no less than 38 Funks active at one time or another in the Suhl and Zella-Mehlis area. The Chr. Funk company in 1934 was owned by Ernst Funk. Ernst's oldest son, Alfred Christoph Funk bought Thieme & Schlegelmilch on February 1, 1934, but ran it as a separate business. In 1937 A.C.F. moved the T&S shop to his father's factory premises at Gothaer Strasse 18. From then on both "Chr.Funk" and "Nimrod" guns were made by the same men in the same factory to the same designs, but were signed and sold by by two financially independent companies until 1945. So it was a cooperative of two companies sharing a factory. BTW, Rob's "Nimrod" drilling is essentially a Chr.Funk "Jubiläumsdrilling 1835 -1935, Modell II", featuring a light action body made from high strength steel, Blitz-/trigger plate locks and Funk's tumbler-locking safety.<<


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Yeah Ford, when it comes to the unique Venturi Shoulder, I am a fanatic. Either the Venturi Shoulder or nothing, or go home.... This is new unfired RWS brass.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I have played around with adding rims to rimless cases and actually made some rimmed cases that way. You need to have a hydraulic press that is powerful enough to swage he material onto the prepared donor case. You also need to have a lathe to make the dies you need, prepare the brass material being added, and to shape/size the added rim. The brass rim material had to be annealed as soft as possible so it will flow, under pressure. If radical case forming will be required, you should do that before adding the rim to prevent damaging it during the sizing operations. The best way to make cases now would be to form them from 30 Blazer donor cases. Forming the cases would be easier than adding a rim and would likely result in better cases anyway. Since I got some cases with my rifle, I didn't have to do that much to be able to shoot it. I did experiment with converting 8x56R blanks that had a substitute for the bullet formed from the case so were long enough. Because of severe work hardening where they were crimped, I was unable to prevent cracking of the neck. I couldn't anneal the necks first because they were loaded and the cracks started while opening them up to remove the powder. I didn't have an 8x56R to fire the blanks in so I don't if starting with fired cases would have helped. Yoy seem to have pretty good supply sources, so I believe your best bet is the 30 Blazer for 5.6x61R cases. BTW My rifle is a "Remo" made by Rempt and I don't know of a connection to Chr.Funk.
Mike

Yeah Ford you have the rarest of the rare of Vom Hofe chamberings because that is the >>One<< that Chr. Funk didn't make.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I'm sure Remo made others beside mine and I wouldn't be surprised to learn someone else made all the post war ones.
Mike

I was only referring to pre-WWII chamberings. Maybe yours was rechambered after the 2nd Great Disagreement in Europe?



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
No, it was prewar rifle owned by the forester of Kloster Forest in Kitzingen/Main and was hidden in a hay pile to avoid turning it over to the authorities. It was wrapped in burlap and if you look closely, you can see the marks of the burlap left by rust. After the war my friend Gene Enterkin was stationed in Kitzingen and befriended the forester who gave him the rifle, but without the scope. The forester was not allowed to have his own rifle but was issued a 30-caliber carbine to use in his job and had the scope mounted on it by Waffen Mahl in Kitzingen. Later, Gene had the scope that is on it now mounted by Waffen Stienerstauch in Wuerzburg/Main. The rifle is chambered for a vom Hofe cartridge, but is not marked as a vom Hofe product itself.
Mike

Hum, not marked is interesting. But something has to change to keep Axel E's Chr. Funk - vom Hofe Story intact. I think that it was because Chr. Fun, owned T&S.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Just had a lengthy chat w/ Mr. William Noody of NY about 5,6 mm bonded bullets with a weight around 5,1 grammes. He takes a 6mm bullet and reduces the diameter. Very interesting retired fella that started out picking up 22 cases @ the range and working off the rim to make 22 bullets. He said that Hornady started the same way. Then he used 429 Pistol brass to make 416" and along with an artikel in Guns & Ammo about the 416 & naming him, everything took off....

He is featured in the current/July edition of the American Shooting Journal w/ a 4 page artikel and his mug in there he says.. Most interesting process to make bullets. His sole source for components & dies is Corbins...

He said that he has made some 5,6mm for a fella that was pushing them around 4000 ft/s.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I resize .264" bullets to .261" and .321-323" to .318" but this amounts to .005" reduction or less. It has been reported that reducing a normal "cup and core" bullet more than that can cause the core to loosen in the jacket. This is because the reduced jacket may "spring back" some, while the lead core won't. On the other hand, I have .228 bullets that a friend "bumped" up from .224" for use in the 5.6x61R vom Hofe. The difference between .243" (6mm bullet) and .228" is .015" reduction and 3 times the limit I have been using for resizing jacketed bullets. I don't know of a .233" (within .005" difference of .228") bullet I could resize to .228". On the other hand, the "bumping up" process my friend uses is not limited to .005" like resizing is, because the core is expanded against the jacket instead of the jacket being reduced against the core. Indeed, expanding the core against the jacket is the process used in making new bullets and is used without problem. Another acquaintance tried turning .243" monometal bullets to .228" but these resulted in high pressure problems and could have resulted in a damaged rifle. His basic idea is worth exploring, I believe, if grooves are added to reduce the pressure required to force the monometal bullet through the lands in the barrel. Some commercial manufacturers use this idea in their production of monometal bullets. I noted that number 1 wire gauge copper wire is nominally 0.228", but even though I have turrets for a couple lathes, given my age there is not enough time left to work out production details.
Mike

Indeed Ford. Mr. William Noody gives that about 0.004" is the max in a conversion like that. He orders specific swaging(??) dies from Corbins to perform the task. He gets orders for hundreds of thousands of round but has to refuse them as he says it will take him a Lifetime or two to turn out that volume. His yearly volume probably approaches 25k in total. He does make a sample pack of 10, which I found most interesting. But he gives that 100 rounds is about where he starts to break even.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
The business is Mr. Noody's and I am sure he will do whatever is most economical and best for him. He might come around to seeing it is easier to bump up heavy .224" bullets than resize.243" bullets. If not, he may have other reasons that are acceptable to him.
Mike

I will ask him Ford as he is meticulous in his Craft....

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

As a 5.6x61R vom Hofe shooter, I will be interested in his reasoning. There is no doubt he is meticulous in his craft.
Mike

Ford:

I have corresponded w/ Mr. William Noody and he gives that 6mm/ 0.243" can be used to make longer jackets and that the walls are a bit thicker. Of course it is possible to use the 0.224" bullets to upsize if he had too. He is designing the bullet to hold together up to 4000 ft/s if it is pushed that fast. He has ordered 6mm jackets from Corbins to complete the project for the 5,6mm X 61R bullets of 79 or 80 grains. He somehow polishes the bullets to get the target weight.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Your initial post about Mr. Noody indicated that he uses 6mm bullets to make .228 bullets, but now I glean from your posts that he actually uses 6mm jackets (not bullets) to make jackets for .228" bullets. That makes much more sense since the core would not be in the jacket while he is reducing it. The core wouldn't be added until before the point forming operation, therefore wouldn't be loosened from the jacket. His comment about thicker jackets resulting also makes sense.
Mike

Now Ford I never said I was a bullet maker Extraordinaire. I was just parroting what he was telling me. Many times folks in the know just hit the high spots and leave you to fill in the blanks.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

After a lengthy conversation w/ Mr. William Noodyhe does he have 80 grains of 0.228" bonded bullets then bonds a 6mm jacket that he orders from Corbin's. Then he resizes the 0.228" bonded bullet w/ a 6mm jacket down to 0.228".

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I must be missing something in the translation. Where does he get the 80gr. .228" bonded core bullet that he adds the Corbin 6 mm Jacket to? Will he sell these bullets (without adding the 6mm jacket) ? It seems that adding a 6mm jacket to a .228" bullet and sizing the whole thing to .228" would result in a monometal bullet by forcing the core out and if you trapped the core inside, you couldn't size it to .228" with available equipment.
Mike

No idea Ford as that was just from our conversation yesterday I think it was. He did say that the bonding of the bonded bullet to the jacket is a chemical(fluid) process. Then somewhere in there he heats the bullet to 621 °F to approach the melting point of Lead(pb) and that there can be pockets of heat of 800-900 °F. I will quiz him more when the bullets arrive.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

And again Ford, I am not a bullet maker by any stretch of the imagination, but I very well may be a bullet authority by the time these bullets arrive.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

A search of William Noody's name revealed that he is the owner/operator of Northern Precision at 329s James St. Carthage NY 13619. Some time ago, I took note of an add they ran in Handloader magazine, announcing that they are now producing .228" bullets, I mentioned this on one of the forums discussing 5.6x61R vom Hofe (maybe even this thread, I didn't search). They redraw 6mm jackets from Corbin to jackets for .228" bullets. From these redrawn jackets, they can produce .228" bullets in weights from 50 grains to 80 grains, either bonded or not bonded. The unbonded core bullets currently cost $50- for 50 bullets and bonded core bullets cost $35- for 25 bullets. Bonded core would be preferred for hunting. Northern Precision produces their bullets using accepted quality equipment and components with precise procedures.
They also produce a variety of other diameter, weight, and type of bullets that would interest others on this forum that shoot rifles using hard to find bullets. I am in no way connected to them and have not yet tried their bullets.
Mike

FWIW: Website => https://www.npcustombullets.com/

Don't forget too that he will kindly make you a 10 bullet sample pack. Remember every bullet passes thru his fingers multiple times....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

All right, on to the 5,6X61R and 6,5X70R loading. Do I need to anneal both cases??? Let the games begin....

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I do not understand your nagging insistence on that thrice answered query. Answered, incidentally, by posters certainly more knowledgeable than I in his respect.
- Old cases (in this case, well 55 years old if not more) better be annealed after having been fired, because of the previous (!) aging of the brass. The Blue Bible also recommends it strongly.
- New cases can be annealed after a due cycle of firings.
- Reformed cases ought to be annealed right after the forming (very necessary), and NOT too late (after the fireforming).

Carcano

Forming and annealing 5.6x61R vom Hofe cases can and will be pretty "iffy". Annealing too early or "burning" the cases can result in the cases collapsing in on itself. Sizing too much in one step can also collapse the case or cause it to "fold in in itself'" creating a weak place that will surely split. You can have an expensive set of forming dies made up or you can use dies of different calibers, already "on hand". Either way can work, you just have to work out a procedure using dies you have, can borrow or can buy. Work on a couple cases at first to avoid ruining all of them in the beginning. The idea is to make the cases small enough to chamber and then fireform them to fit the chamber. In the middle steps, it doesn't matter if the case looks funny and is stepped, the fireforming will work that out.
Mike

Yeah, I should have some Bonded Bullets this week, hopefully.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I think you might get away with not annealing the 5,6X61R but unequivocally if one does not anneal the 6,5X70R, you are going to have a cracked case...... But in the interim I did change by Middle Name to »Nagging Insistence«.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Anyone hazard a guess how the RWS 5,6X57R might compare or contrast w/ the 5,6X61R vom Hofe Super Express??? I believe the RWS 5,6X57R was loaded w/ R907.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

In the same vein, anyone have any published load data for the 5,6X61R vom Hofe Super Express using H4381, or similar, w/ an 80 grain bullet?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

any such comparison of those 2 calibers will depend on the bullet weights and other factors, I will not hazard any guess here.

RWS Wiederladen (the "Blue Book") has data for the 5,6x61R, but only for the 4,6 g (app. 70 grain) bullets intended for the .22 Savage HP (5,6x52R), noting that these bullets are on the soft side.
Min and max loads with R 907 and R 904 are given.
Then there is this note: for internal ballictic reasons (whatever these may be?) R 905 is not suitable and shall under no circumstances ("keinesfalls") be used.

In my QuickLoad powder chart H4381 is listed on almost the same level as R 905.

fuhrmann

Any load data contained therein in the »Blue Book« for the 6,5X61R??

Too, would anyone use a Magnum Large Rifle Primer in the 6,5X61R?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse