October
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Who's Online Now
1 members (smlekid), 889 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics39,509
Posts562,204
Members14,588
Most Online9,918
Jul 28th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#661914 06/16/25 09:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
CJF Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
I'm interested in hearing if any of you own black powder express oval bore rifles, by Charles Lancaster or others. How do they shoot? Any difference in loading for them vs traditional rifling or Henry rifling? Asking as I now have two, one in 450 3.25" and a second, slightly earlier rifle, in 500/450 3.25". Both are hammer doubles with Jones under levers from the mid to late 1880s.

TIA,
Chris

CJF #661917 06/17/25 12:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,733
Likes: 211
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,733
Likes: 211
Congrats Chris. I've been trying to get one but haven't been lucky in the bidding as of yet.

CJF #661920 06/17/25 06:04 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 212
Likes: 47
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 212
Likes: 47
The oval bore Lancasters will shoot paper wrapped bullet Express cartridges loaded with black powder as well as any of the other rifling styles.
There's nothing special needs to be done.

CJF #661951 06/17/25 08:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
CJF Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
Thank you Mike and Mike. I'll report how the 450 3 1/4" does when I get home from traveling. The 500/450 needs a little fix to a chipped buttstock damaged in transit from Europe, so that won't be immediate.

FWIW, here's a few pics from the 450BPE 3.25". Colors are rich and the engraving sharp. Unfortunately the barrels were reblacked and the their engraving is a bit soft. Might address that after I find out how it shoots.

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

2 members like this: earlyriser, Mt Al
CJF #661958 06/18/25 08:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 80
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 80
Chris,

Nice rifles. Hopefully, you bring them out next time to shoot! smile

Ken

1 member likes this: CJF
CJF #661961 06/18/25 09:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,315
Likes: 618
SKB Offline
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,315
Likes: 618
Lancaster built spectacular guns and rifles, that one sure is great looking!


Firearms imports, consignments


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
1 member likes this: CJF
SKB #662006 06/19/25 02:07 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,079
Likes: 393
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,079
Likes: 393
Originally Posted by SKB
Lancaster built spectacular guns and rifles, that one sure is great looking!

Steve;

You are very correct. And so did his brother Alfred Lancaster.
Look at this spectacular hammer gun by Charles Lancaster up for auction at Holts, maybe it should be termed spectacular deluxe....

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++1815+&refno=++232790&saletype=

Then look at this super rare Lancaster bolt action .280 rimless oval bore rifle.

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++1107+&refno=++231258&saletype=

Last edited by bushveld; 06/19/25 05:23 PM.
CJF #662024 06/19/25 09:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,315
Likes: 618
SKB Offline
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,315
Likes: 618
Steve,
I have had two really nice Lancaster percussion rifles. The shotgun that you linked to is quite nice. Hard to beat a Lancaster. Many folks don't know it but Lancaster guns and rifles were more costly than a Purdey in Victorian times.

Steve


Firearms imports, consignments


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
CJF #662042 06/20/25 09:48 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,079
Likes: 393
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,079
Likes: 393
Steve;

I have coming today (it is on the Fed Ex truck as I write this) Alfred Lancaster 12 bore hammergun no 1 of a pair from 1873 30 inch damascus barrels (English made) formerly the property of William Douglas the Duke of Hamilton. Still has the Duke of Hamilton family crest in gold in the butt stock. Snap underlever made on the Emme and Woodward action design. I am satisfied that the action was built by Emme for Alfred Lancaster.

As you inferred both Charles Lancaster, jr and his brother Alfred Lancaster were the London gunmaking favorites of the British nobility during the 1870's. As a matter of fact the Duke of Hamilton gave to the Prince of Wales (later King Edward VII) a pair of Alfred 20 hammerguns built for the Duke a year or so after he had the 12 bores built of which one of I will soon be viewing. The 20 bore Alfred Lancaster hammerguns remain in the Royal gun collection at Sandringham.

Stephen Howell

CJF #662059 06/20/25 04:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 379
Likes: 34
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 379
Likes: 34
One time I was in the Westley Richards shop in London and was offered a Lancaster oval bore double in 280 Ross that had been made for a minor Maharajah. Unfortunately, they wanted $800 for it.

CJF #663543 07/29/25 01:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
CJF Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
The Lancaster that had arrived needing a new butt pad is now ready to try out. It's in 500/450 3.25". My plan is to take 500/416 brass and see if I can neck that up in my 500/450 2.75" dies. If not, then I was going to try fireforming with cream of wheat or grits, but that takes a 45 min drive each way to where I can shoot. Hopefully necking up with dies will work.

Any advice on either approach?

CJF #663549 07/29/25 03:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,939
Likes: 343
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,939
Likes: 343
CJF,
If you wait until your wife has gone shopping and are willing to change to worn out polishing media (will not attract mice) as the filler, you should be able to fire form a few cases somewhere around the house. Since there is no bullet involved, you only have to consider the noise and the mess. In two different houses I have fireformed a few cases by shooting from the basement to the crawl space, through the access door. Another option is an enclosed garage, if you have a "shop vac". If nothing else, you could establish the necessary charge weight before having to drive to the range. I don't have good experience necking cases up with loading die expanding plugs where the final case needs to be the same length as the donor case. If you feel the need to neck them up, you should make, or have someone else make, an expander plug with a longer gentle taper. Expanding the necks by either method will shorten the cases but having to trim to "square up" uneven necks caused by loading die expanders make it worse. Just a couple suggestions.
Mike

Last edited by Der Ami; 07/30/25 08:32 AM.
1 member likes this: CJF
CJF #663554 07/29/25 07:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 379
Likes: 34
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 379
Likes: 34
2 suggestions. One is to fire form as tapered expanders can sometimes lead to odd necks. Of course, in a case that size it may not make much of a difference. The other suggestion is, if fire forming, don't use grits. For one thing they really make a stink that way and for another thing, that is a criminal waste of one of nature's most perfect foods.

CJF #663556 07/29/25 08:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
CJF Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
I wish I could fireform at home but where we live here in town that's not something I think will go unnoticed by the neighborhood. Re grits value as a food for the gods, does that diminish after expiration date plus 2 years? I've got a package in the pantry that I've been holding onto for fireforming as it's now quite old.

I've got Unique powder. 10grs sound right?

CJF #663569 07/30/25 08:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,939
Likes: 343
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,939
Likes: 343
CJF,
The way to know if a fireforming load is right is to try it. If you load the whole batch and they (or some) don't fill out, you have to drive back and try again.

1 member likes this: CJF
CJF #663587 07/30/25 12:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 379
Likes: 34
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 379
Likes: 34
The rule is that not much attention will be paid to one bang but a second one will draw attention. Try just one and see how it works for you.

1 member likes this: CJF
CJF #663731 08/04/25 07:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
CJF Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
Mike & HalfaDouble, you both hinted at the solution...trying the fireforming loads before driving to the range. Well I can report after driving 80 minutes round trip that 10.5gr of Unique is NOT enough to form 500/416 brass into 500/450 3.25". Basically nothing happened to the brass. It was entertaining to shoot a grit shotgun load 10 times. Sounded like what a BPE round would if suppressed smile

On a positive note, the other Charles Lancaster rifle, the 450 BPE in 3.25", shot very well with 300gr JHP .452" NfB loads that also worked quite well in my Edward Lang, and even better with .458" lead flat nosed bullets weighing 350gr with a NfB load using 4198.

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

I'll have to post some side by side comparisons of the two rifles. The earlier serial number rifle strangely has rebounding locks, while the newer rifle has the older style non-rebounding locks. Both have stalking safeties.

Note: we had rain yesterday and last night, so I did not move the shooting bench at our range due to the mud, and the range for these was only 22yds. The lighter jacketed bullets were chosen because my Lang has tight bores and I'd loaded them for rifle. With 45gr of 4198 these were doing 1799fps on average for 4 shots with a std dev of 8.9. The larger (.458 vs .452) and heavier bullets (350 vs 300gr) that generated the pictured target were faster at an average velocicty of 1865fps for 4 shots with a std dev of 15.8.

Last edited by CJF; 08/05/25 06:12 AM. Reason: Correct fps for 350gr load
1 member likes this: earlyriser
CJF #663742 08/05/25 04:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,315
Likes: 618
SKB Offline
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 7,315
Likes: 618
It was not uncommon for an owner to send a loved rifle or shotgun back to the maker to have the locks converted to rebounding.


Firearms imports, consignments


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
CJF #663751 08/05/25 07:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
CJF Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

1 member likes this: earlyriser
CJF #663753 08/05/25 09:00 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,939
Likes: 343
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,939
Likes: 343
CJF,
That is the way I learned and wouldn't be surprised if HalfaDouble did too.
Mike

CJF #663773 08/05/25 01:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 379
Likes: 34
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 379
Likes: 34
It might be that Unique burns a bit slow for the task. I use a faster pistol powder or shotgun powder- and, Cream of Wheat;-)

CJF #663944 08/10/25 10:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
CJF Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
Tried it out in the garage, discharging into a trashcan. I had ear pro on. Not too loud. Wife was on the porch listening to music with ear buds in and didn't hear it. 14gr Unique was enough. Sorry, still using up the ancient grits.

CJF #663950 08/10/25 01:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,939
Likes: 343
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,939
Likes: 343
CJF,
You don't need to feel sorry about using grits, it's your project and your house, you can do what you want. BTW discharging into a trashcan is a good solution to the "mouse attraction problem", thanks for the hint.
Mike

CJF #663955 08/10/25 03:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
CJF Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
Mike,

The trashcan even had one of those hinged lids, so everything stayed inside. So in the garage 14gr was 1 for 1 successfully blowing out the case. I replicated that load and tried it at the range for another 8. Only one formed. Weird. I did not yet try Curl's method for annealing the case mouths. That's next.

The one round I did try was 12 o'clock on the paper at 25yds, but quite high...4-5". That was with a 350gr unpatched .458" bullet over 45gr 4198.

Also shot two 500BPE rifles with NfB loads. Went well. Will start a different thread on those results.

Chris

CJF #663958 08/10/25 05:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 379
Likes: 34
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 379
Likes: 34
That's great about the hinge lidded trash can. It must be working like a giant suppressor. Strange about not working at the range. I wonder if the powder is getting mixed in the grits during the trip and not burning the same. Of course, Unique is down about 32 powders on the burn rate chart. I've used faster powders like Bullseye or 700x or Red Dot or Clays, but I would start with a lighter load of those and work up until it does the trick.

CJF #664409 08/20/25 01:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
CJF Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
An update on fireforming and the 500/450 and 450 Lancasters.

First, I did anneal cases using the kitchen stove (gas) and the hot fingers method. I tried new Jamison 500/416 cases for this, not the ones that I've tried forming twice with Unique. So annealed then loaded with a light charge of a fast pistol powder, HP-38, plus grits and kapok to hold it in. Of the 10 cases I brought, 9 formed. At least one still has a tight mouth; perhaps not annealed soft enough. Next step is to anneal the original 10 cases that resisted forming and re-try 14grs of Unique to see if it was the original lack of annealing or the powder that failed.

I was quite excited to try 5 previously formed cases as live rounds in the 500/450 rifle. Load was 4198 with kapok and a .458" LFN 350gr bullet. First 3 rounds were touching. 4th opened it up and I don't think I pulled that one (who knows?). 5th came back to the original 3. So the 4 were 1" center to center, but the 5th opened it up to 2". Range 30yards. Very promising.

On the flip side, the 450BPE rifle (3.25") really didn't like some black powder rounds I had left over from an earlier effort with a different rifle. Those were 110gr 2Fg Swiss, 325gr FN 20-1 SPG, using bullets from RCBS mould 45-325FN, .458”. Unpatched. Velocity was too low at 1618fps. Results were all over the map.

Will post more pictures soon.

Last edited by CJF; 08/21/25 11:28 AM.
1 member likes this: earlyriser
CJF #664459 08/21/25 06:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
CJF Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
The 500/450 and some promising early results with 350gr lead bullets, unpatched, and 4198.

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

Last edited by CJF; 08/22/25 09:52 AM.
1 member likes this: earlyriser
CJF #664488 08/22/25 09:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
CJF Offline OP
Sidelock
*
OP Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 427
Likes: 104
Here are a few more pics of the earlier Lancaster, in 500/450 3.25" that I've been working to form cases for from 500/416. So far, the few rounds I've completed and fired have shown promise that this rifle will shoot as well as it's new brother, the 450BPE.

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]

1 member likes this: earlyriser
CJF #665234 09/08/25 10:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 10
Likes: 1
Boxlock
Offline
Boxlock

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 10
Likes: 1
From what I have read and from my experience with my Lancasters, the bullet needs to be sized for the minimum bore size and soft enough to upset to fill the bore under BP push. I got very good results with PP soft bullets in my 450 BPE. I also got excellent results with my little 360 EX using naked cast bullets for a 38 Special but horrible results with hard cast, GC bullets (keyholing @ 50 yds and side of barn at 100yds.)

1 member likes this: CJF
CJF #665492 09/15/25 06:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 356
Likes: 4
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 356
Likes: 4
Chris,

Your Lancaster double rifles are beautiful! Thanks for posting them.

Curly

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.888s Queries: 86 (0.804s) Memory: 0.9800 MB (Peak: 1.9018 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2025-10-14 07:51:28 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS