doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com J. A. Scotcher

In contrast to Bluestem I have come across many more than 9 guns made by Scotcher. My interest has somewhat wained since my 12ga hammer gun with Jones undercover and damascus barrels was stolen from me along with a few other guns.

You'll have to take up the discrepancy with the late Geoffrey Boothroyd; it was his assertion at the time, not mine.

Thanks Argo44 for Diggory's helpful chart which I've saved.

Game Guns and Rifles, percussion to hammerless ejector in Britain, by Richard Akehurst (1969), states: "The introduction of choke boring in the 1870s caused the issue of new (proof) regulations in 1875". He then illustrates the same Birmingham proof house markings as on this hammer gun; "8B 10M", the crown over V and "NOT FOR BALL".

Apart from one firing pin return spring needing to be replaced, this hammer gun is in remarkable order. Interesting that it came with 60 or so 3,1/4" Eley-Kynoch cartridges, but the proof marks says it's only 3" chambered. I'll shortly be dropping a New Zealand $1 coin down the chamber to check this. The forward 8-Bore chamber is a nominal 23.2mm. The coin is 23.00mm.

It's currently at the gunsmiths for a full strip and clean. The initial inspection showed the locks look great.

another quite useful bit of information from diggory's dandy little chart - you might say "hidden in plain sight" - instituted in the 1887 changes; was the dividing of the 20 thousands bore measure into two 10 thou steps. it helps to remember that prior to that time, a gun 19 thou over original bore diameter was still in proof.

I found a trick that anyone can do to work out their chamber length. The internal dimensions of an 8-bore and any other shotgun chamber can be found online. In the example of the 8-bore, the forward chamber is a nominal 23.2mm diameter. I then found a web-page with the dimensions of our local coinage. By serendipity the New Zealand $1 coin is 23.0mm. Dropping the coin in the bore it isn't likely to fall through and get stuck in the bore for the same reason manhole covers are made round. By tapping it with a Parker-Hale style wooden shotgun cleaning rod it sat nicely against the forcing cone. The depth of the shotgun rod in the chamber plus the width of the coin is just over 3,3/4". So Eley-Kynoch rounds at 3,1/4" length should be entirely safe to shoot, (this gun is nitro-proofed). Ironically I can load 2oz of shot, (the Eley 8-guage load), in my semi-automatic 10 gauge magnum and 1,7/8oz in my 12 gauge magnum semi, but my old Langley and Lewis 3" 12 gauge magnum side by side is only proofed for 1,1/2oz.

The same trick should work for any chamber that has a forcing cone, just got to find the right diameter coin to fit.

i have done something similar in nature, but with much broader applicability. every pawn shop in the universe has buckets of old single socket wrenches, also found in resale/thrift stores/yard sales/etc...and likely several in your own shop. various different brands, 6 point/12 point, thick wall/thin wall will all vary in their outside diameters, even in the same internal size.

take your 0-1" micrometer and measure the outside diameters, and mark that diameter on the socket with an indelible marker and arrange them - mine are in ascending/descending sizes in a board with shallow holes drilled - and each position marked with the corresponding diameter. add to that a few extensions; 2", 6", 8", so forth - i now have 35-40 sockets and extensions that will let me piece together handles up to 10"....and i doubt that i have spent $25 on the entire set-up.

i have 12's, 16's (and one 1884 10 gauge) - so i'm trying to cover spans from a tight full choke to a hone job that's 10 thou over original bore size. i.e., in a 12 built with a .720' bore and 40 thou choke...as tight as .680 - to a 10 thou hone on a .729 bore...as large as .740. my 16 gauge assortment runs from about .620" on the tight end, to about .680". i am trying to fill in the gaps, and to have a plug at least every 3 thou between these points....i can tell you that a difference of 2 thou in diameter is a pretty small difference. for my 10 gauge i only have specific sizes pertaining to a single gun.

so, with a 8" extension and a socket with about a 1" length, you have a decent replica of the english plug gauge, reading 9" from the breech - just like it's done in b'ham. if you have a socket that corresponds to the end of chamber diameter - you have a similar depth gauge for the chamber length that you have established with a coin...but it's much easier to handle securely. and with a set of closely spaced sockets, you have an accurate means of measuring chokes. i have even straightened up some slightly dented (out of round) muzzles - just start with the smallest plug that won't pass into the muzzle...use a bit of grease or wax (i favor frog lube) and gently step up until the dent is lifted.

I have never seen 8 bore barrels marked as 3/4 choke. Surely the markings refer to a 3 & 3/4" chamber length? The word "choke" just means exactly that and replaced the previous mark of "not for ball" or 8B 9M etc.
As for using Eley factory 3 1/4" card and felt wad loads in a 3&3/4" chambered gun usually means poor patterning despite the chokes.Original Eley cartridges are worth a bit to collectors.
If you are going to use it for "fowling you would get better results by loading your own in 3 1/4" plastic hull with plastic skirt wad by Guilandi and lead shot - but if non-toxic shot use bismuth. I would caution against using steel shot in it.

I came to the same conclusion re the 3"3/4 CHOKE (as it appears on the barrel), as actually meaning 3,3/4" chamber.

Because the proof marks for both barrels are 8/1 this points to them being .847" bore (9" from the breech), rather than the standard .835. I don't have any socket tools of the right diameter to check/confirm this, (see above), but will look for one shortly to measure the bore. However, using just a dial caliper as a very rough guide, the chokes seem to be Full and Extra Full, which is not unusual in a dedicated wildfowling gun. I wouldn't use steel shot in any old gun, especially one with tight chokes, but I do have a supply of bismuth and also Tom Armbrust's book, "4 and 8 Bore Shotguns and Loads", which has various load recipes for industrial shells. I'll need special swaging tools to make industrial cases suitable, but C-H Tool and Die seem to sell them as does Clays and Game in the UK.

The best news is that Canada geese in New Zealand are no longer subject to the rules around non-toxic shot. So there's no reason not to use lead BB's.

8/1 = .847 - .860"

Eley paper case internal diam = .828-.830" (= Black Remington plastic hull. ) Felt Wad diameter .847" as per tables for wad data for standard paper cases.

Thin Brass case " " = .878"

So it can't be a brass case gun, I presume.

It did account for 5 Canada geese last weekend with photos to prove it!