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Jakob Koschat - Josef Winkler's Nachfolger - 20 Bore X 6,5X70R - 1928












Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Nice. I like that old gentleman, and I hope he is still alive and working.

White: I think it is a Graceful Lady, or made for a Lady or Lad in 1928; tough time then....


Anyway, there of course is a story here. 6,5X70R Czech was all the rage a few weeks back & I saw this 6,5X70R ammo on GunsInternational for-sale. So I contacted Benelli Don and asked if that was his best price. He replied that he didn't want to see it without the drilling..... So, he told me he would give me a >>Screaming Deal<< on the whole lot as he had 78 years & was on his 2nd shoulder surgery. I told him to get his heart right & we would talk in a few days. Then he tells me that he has trouble with cases cracking and couldn't get a handle on exactly how to anneal cases......


I agreed to be the next custodian and he said he would ship it via UPS from an Ace Hardware in Waco, Texas to Hartselle, Alabama. Then the brass & dies would come thru the Parcel Post. I noticed via the UPS tracking App that it was getting close & would be delivered on Monday, the 20th. The 20th passed & it wasn't delivered and then it just vanished. I went by the Gun Shop & nothing. I had another delivery by UPS & I asked the driver his opinion and he said it sounds like the item fell out or was stolen???? Then today I get a call saying we have your gun & the Local County Sheriff got involved; story to be told when you get here????? I arrive & they start to tell the tale. @ the local UPS Hub, for some reason some UPS personnel in their infinite wisdom thought that since it was the same length of a auto bumper it was situated next to & that it went with the bumper so they taped my box to the bumper & delivered it maybe 5 miles way from my house. This kid takes the bumper & package to his shop in another municipality and there decides he needs to call the Pawn Shop(shipping destination). Then the crew @ the Pawn Shop thinks the call is some ploy to lure them in & rob them. But there is an off duty Sheriff's Deputy there & they ask him to call the kid back. He does & tells the kid who he is & is he going to bring the package to the Pawn Shop, or does he need to pick it up..... Kid said the Deputy needs to collect it. So the Officer sends someone by to collect it & take it to the Pawn Shop. All but unbelievable but that's how Guns get lost. & it appears it is quite frequent with the Post Office putting packages with Pistols in Mailboxes of the to be custodian.....


Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Yeah, I am not sure how the Ajack glass arrived on the top????



Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Nothing Czech about this round. The .303 isn't Canadian either. Even though Domininion has also made it at a time.

The wood is fantastically figured; I will attempt to get better lighting today.



The diameter was 6,8mm on the final pass & the tubeset weighed 1775 grammes.

My Trust, Dusty Kat Certified Kitchen scales have the tubeset @ 1788 grammes, which probably includes the scope bases?

Total weight w/ the Monstrosity Ajack Glass atop is 3,828 grammes.

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

>>Dříve velmi populární lovecký náboj neznámého původu. S největší pravděpodobností se jedná o náboj vzniklý v Rakousku někdy na přelomu 19. a 20. století. Náboj byl používán ve zbraních s lůžkovým závěrem, což jsou zlamovací zbraně jako brokovnice a trojáky. Vyráběn byl firmami Sellier & Bellot, Povážskými strojírnami a G. Rothem. Po 2. světové válce byl ještě nějakou dobu vyráběn, ale rychle zastaral.

Střela o hmotnosti 8,2 g má počáteční rychlost 700 m/s.<<



https://naboje.org/en/node/3739#

I will agree the 6,5X70R Czech is a moniker due to use in a region rather than an origin but the pseudo Genesis has been attached....

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

The preliminary datastring is >>2427.28.14'8.16'0<<; So 14,8mm for the scattergun tubes and 6,0 mm for the solid projectile tube.

The Final Pass numbers were 15,0mm for each shot tube & 6,8mm for the rifled tube.


Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

I will have to mine data a bit, but with this advertising >>Jakob Koschat - Josef Winkler's Nachfolger<< I think post 1970s or 1980s there may have been a Josef Winkler - Jakob Koschat's Nachfolger...... Something like that. I must check...


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Most of that was WRONG, so I will give you the halfway real genesis instead, and then Axel Eichendorf or some ammunition specialist from the IAA forum may add the REAL real genesis to it. ;-)

This famous "pencil cartridge" was developed in the ambit and under the aura of famous Prussian and Imperial grand master of shotgunning and ballistics Albert Preuß. He had assembled a small group of enthusiasts who regularly met, once or twice a year, at a "Ballistischer Congress", and who of course corresponded assiduously in the meantime. Ammunition manufacturers, dealers, gunsmiths, ballisticians, one or the other officer, and also talented amateurs (dilettanti, in the positive sense). The latter were usually foresters or "gentlemen of independent means", who indulged in such noble pastime.
The longer biographic story of Preuß is rather hidden (!) here:
https://fk-wurfscheibe.de/tag/stockholm-1912/

In our case, it was the interested and curiously-minded manor owner (Gutsbesitzer) Alfred Ungewitter, on Roßdorf manor near (Raguhn-)Jeßnitz. The next big city is infamous Bitterfeld. There are two Roßdorfs, not even far apart, and this one is *NOT* the one with the famous park and maze. Actually, the still extant "manor house" is a rather minor and modest building:





on the grounds of a former Eisenhammer (hammer forge or iron hammer); the small street still bears this old name.



The 6,5x70R was smokeless since its ineption, which is situated in the first years of the 20th century, probably between 1911/12, when Ungewitter seems to have interested Sauer & Sohn in a collaboration. The first ammunition manufacturer to produce it seems to have been Georg Roth (in Preßburg / Pozsony, in the Hungarian part of the double monarchy) . The cartridge was no doubt discussed and described in the two journals "Schießwesen" and "Schuß und Waffe" at the time.

Carcano

Raimey,
In your story of how you acquired the drilling and 6.5x70R ammo, I took note of the seller's statement that he had trouble with the cases cracking and he couldn't get a handle on annealing them. Is the ammo "factory" or is it handloaded? If handloaded, was it loaded using factory cases or cases formed from another caliber case? I suggest you don't shoot any of the ammo until you work it out. Original ammo would be pretty old and cases could be brittle from age. If the ammo is loaded in cases redrawn from some other cases they may be work hardened and brittle from the process (on the other hand, you would think someone that could redraw cases would anneal them, but maybe not far enough down. Did he send the split cases?). It might be to save the remaining cases, you need to break the ammo down and anneal the cases before they split. If you have split cases, can you post photos of the splits and the headstamps?
Mike

Ford, all the brass, ammo, whatever I have seen as of late has all been Unfinished Bertram. Yes, there is Bertram Brass loaded w/ a lead 0.266" 130 grain bullets. Indeed, I will pull the bullets & burn a little unknown powder. I was thinking of VV 550 for now?


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Frightfully sorry there 7,35 Carcano, but I must have missed that issue of „Schuss & Waffe“, or maybe it just wasn't delivered. But that seems to be the German side of the story. As you well know, there's your side, the other side & then the truth in every tale......

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,
This is a very neat triple gun, worth every Schilling and Grosch.
Cheers,
Jani

Jani, I am actually somewhat indebted - and very grateful - to Raimey that he has inducted me to research deeper into Ferlach's history, and notably into wider Carinthian history.

From the Cillier Sprachenstreit (pettiness extreme on the part of the German speakers) over the Kärntner Abwehrkampf (heroical and successful, yet soon jingoistically abused by sabre-rattling "alldeutsche" nationalists), to the important US role (Lt.Col. Sherman Miles and the Miles Commission) for the future of Austrian Carinthia, back then.

A quick foray via Google Street View at least comforted me to learn that the vicious Kärntner Ortstafelstreit, although that violent "convoy of shame" originally departed from Ferlach in 1972, seems not to be reflected in any way by the Ferlacher city limit signs ;-).

Still, I am ashamed as a German speaker about the role and the past intransigence of the Kärntner Heimatdienst; its appears that the old trenches have very long been manned and staffed, with fixed bayonets, and are only slowly being left since 2005 or so?

Regards und beste Grüße,
Carcano

Raimey,
I don't use Bertram cases, so I can't speak from firsthand experience, but over the years have seen others complain about Bertram cases, some that the cases were brittle. I think Bertram provided the cases and someone else loaded the ammo. The use of .266" bullets is also a concern, but if justified may be a blessing in the long run. You should "slug" the barrel to find out the actual groove diameter. The cartridge was intended to use .260-1" bullets, like the 6.5x48R and 6.5x58R, but if the maker did use the more modern .264" groove diameter barrel, you would be freed from the requirement to resize jacketed bullets. Bertram cases are very expensive and to save as many as possible, I would pull the bullets, empty the powder and deprime. Then I would anneal the cases (taking note of where the previous owner experienced splits) and fireform them with a filler and no bullet. This method of fireforming is much easier on the cases than firing a full power bulleted load to fit the cases to the chamber. Hint: try one or two first to test the procedure before pulling all the bullets. If the annealing and fireforming is successful, load some with bullets and a mid-level load and try them. Neck size the cases when loading these, to provide the cases with as much support from the chamber walls as possible. Good luck, I hope it works out.
Mike

Really Ford, decap too..... I only have say 19 to pull. I think all the cases have been trimmed to length but I will check them all. I do plan to start w/ 3 sticks of brass & move towards fire-forming......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Jani:

Indeed & add in every pětka, Kronen, Koruna, etc. that I had stuck back to pry the Trojčica from his hands & send it my way.

Without glass, The Sunday Lad - Lady trocevka weighs in @ 3265 grammes or almost 7 lbs on the nose....

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

By the way, the Ajack Scope serial number is 51703 & it has a »+« noting a Military variant. There are holes with set screws in the tube which are for cold grease. And then there are 2 additional holes in the rear of the scope to drain water in the event of a downpour. But I wouldn't think a Lad - Lady Sunday Hunter would be out in foul weather?


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Carcano,
I much appreciate your interest in Carinthian history including the struggle of the Slovenian minority against the German speaking majority. When I was writing my recent book on Ferlach Gunmaking (Borovška Puškarija, 2023) this struggle came up all the time in historical sources I consulted; I tried to keep it down and not letting it compromise the mainstream story. But as much as I try to look upon it as a matter of past, the Austrian Police raid on a Slovenian Anti-Nazi Museum (Peršman, Peršmanhof) in the Carinthian mountains near Eisenkappel/Železna Kapla not far from Ferlach/Borovlje just a month ago reminds me that, sadly, this seems to be an ongoing struggle.
With kind regards,
Jani

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=49326&Number=627384

Raimey,
The 6.8 on the barrel, for what you called the "final pass" would be .268"minus, so it is likely you won't need to resize .264" bullets, you should slug the barrel. It would be a good idea to keep your eyes open for any 6x70 Kreighoff cases you can find.
Mike

Thanks Ford. I saw another Borovlje drillilng & the stamp for some reason was »6.88«, but I assume the 2nd 8 was errant? I put some feelers out just this morning for anything associated w/ 6,5 & 6X70R....


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Well, the Ferlacher stamped »6.88« was actually a Sigott Cape




Being a 2 Barrel Set......

And almost all these „Bleistiftpatrone = Pencil Cartridge“ chamberings seem to date between the mid 1920s to the mid 1930s(1928-1933)??









Another Borovlje Biksarica / Cape Gun


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Ford, it appears that after sluggin' the bore twice the diameter is 0.265"-0.266", more or less. So would there be an issue w/ the 130 grain cast lead bullets w/ a gas check that came w/ the gun?

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

I forgot to note it has Bushed & Diskset Stikers(„Von vorne herausnehmbare verschraubte Schlagbolzen“)on all tubes.

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

And I forgot to mention the tubeset length which is 66 cm or 26". LOP is 34 cm; a bit short, but it is what it is.

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,
With that groove diameter, the bullets that came with the ammo would not be an "issue" at all. More importantly, you will not need to resize modern 6.5mm jacketed bullets. If you run across loading data recommending using .257" bullets, ignore that part. That is lucky for you, you will have enough trouble with cases.
Mike

Ford:



I have the cases, I just to not wish to sacrifice even one....

The 20 bore chambers are 65mm and have not been altered.


To recap & refresh, can you elaborate on the Austrian bore measurement, which resulted in a stamp of »6.8«.
Who how & where did the Austrians measure??? So if you have an Austrian stamp of 6.8mm, and assuming it is accurate, would you ever expect the diameter of a slug to be 0.257" after sluggin' the bore?

And how & where did the Germans measure.....


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I hesitate to say " always" because that word is so final. The Germans usually used the bore "not groove or bullet" diameter, but the Austrians usually used the groove (or bullet, not always the same) diameter. Sometimes case length of Austrian cartridges is shown as longer than a similar German cartridge would be, because they sometimes add a mm for rim thickness. I wouldn't expect barrel measured at 6.8mm to slug at .257" (a German 6.8 would represent bore diameter, an Austrian 6.8 would represent the groove diameter, slugging a barrel gives the groove diameter). This is why you should "slug" the barrel to determine the diameter of the bullet you need to use and don't depend on the marking for that.
Mike

It might be even more helpful to procure modern 6,5x70R boxer cases from the usual suspects, namely Johannsen (once Horneber, whose machinery was bought by Johannsen in 2021 or so), SHM, Dorfner in Vienna (who also loads cartridge ammo) and possibly Bertram.

Carcano

Well Ford, let me ask this: on an Austrian stamp of 6.8mm, how many mm or thou less would you expect the bore to slug?

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,
6.8 mm, if I remember correctly is .268" and you slugged the barrel at .266", but other barrels may be something different. Count your blessings that you can use modern .264-5" bullets and not have to size them to .261", as I do.
Mike

Aright Ford, and anyone else who wishes to toss an opinion. Purely Hypothetical: Let's say I have a Suhl Rifle in 6,5X70R from the cradle where the 6,5X70R was designed, developed and made. And the tube is stamped 6,5X70R. And let's say Sauer is selling ammo....

I also have a Franz Sodia rifle 6,5X70R stamped 6.8(or 6.88 for that matter) and I have Franz Sodia ammo.

Say I shoot out of Franz Sodia ammo, can I purchase Suhl 6,5X70R ammo and shoot it through my Franz Sodia???

Of say I ran out of Suhl, cradle of the 6,5X70R, can I insert a Franz Sodia round in my German made 6,5X70R without any worries? Inquiring minds would like to know......

If I had an original round, one from Suhl the cradle of the 6,5X70R and one with a headstamp Franz Sodia, would the bullet diameters be exactly the same?

I am quite confident that the bulk of the Austrian hunters were not resizing their bullets......

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Ford:

I again slugged it with one of the 130 grain bullets that accompanied it. What is the best method to obtain the smallest diameter of the bore; i.e., where is is best to measure on the slugged bullet? I assume rotate it a full round?

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

It is widely - maybe generally - not recommeded that one attempt (!) to slug a barrel with the whole bullet. For two resons.

Firstly, the bearing surface would be too long; it is preferred to use a somewhat oversized round ball (so that only a deformed driving band remains flat around the circumference), or a rather short cylindrical body.

Secondly, a plug used for slugging must be dead soft. Antimony-hardened lead (as in cartridge rifle bullets) or gas checks are inappropriate.

Thirdly, but you will certainly have observed this, the barrel and the slug should be well oiled. I mention this only for completeness' sake.

Carcano

Yes & No. There is more here than meets the eye. There was some Magic & Voodoo involved in order to make the task @ hand a bit easier......

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,
First of all, you will not be able to buy 6.5x70R ammo loaded by any commercial manufacturer in either Suhl or Austria; you will either have to load it yourself or have a custom handloader load it for you. Whoever loads the ammo will have to match it to the rifle (within accepted tolerances). The nominal caliber is only the "name" of the cartridge the gun is chambered to use. Some "names" are established to fit actual dimensions, some are established to fit nominal dimensions (6.5mm is .256", but a nominal 6.5 mm bullet is .264-5" or 6.7mm diameter). Some cartridges have different names to avoid confusion but use the same size bullet (.218 Bee, .219 Wasp, .220 Swift, .221 Fireball, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, and .225 Winchester all use .224"diameter bullets), some have the same nominal size but different actual size (38 S&W Special is .357", 38S&W is .361", 38Colt is .375"), sometimes the same cartridge has different names for advertising (38S&W and 38Colt New Police are the same). Some people think the metric system avoids confusion, but subject of this thread shows that is not entirely true. As long as commercial ammo is available, using ammo that matches the nominal caliber of the gun is correct. However, once you have to load your own ammo, you have to make sure the components match the gun. Custom handloaders should also match components to the gun. Failure to do this results in ammo that may not chamber or may not perform well or may be dangerous. Whoever loaded the ammo that came with your rifle, correctly matched the bullet to the actual groove diameter of the rifle rather than matching the nominal diameter. The difference is the manufacturer of the gun used a barrel that matched the diameter of a nominal 6.5mm bullet rather than the actual dimensions of the cartridge established by the designer. Since you can't buy ammo for your gun at the local "Mal-Mart", as long as you understand the difference and use the correct components, your rifle will perform as intended.
To measure the slug, measure across the lands of the slug to determine the groove diameter of the barrel. This is fine as long as the barrel has an even number of grooves and the mic. or caliper measures land to land on the slug. If the barrel has an uneven number of grooves the mic. will measure from land to groove and give an incorrect measurement unless you use a special micrometer made to measure such slugs. A correct measurement can be approximated by a couple different methods, one of which is to rotate the slug between the jaws of a dial or digital caliper as you mentioned. You don't have to rotate it a full round, if you are careful rotating over one land to the next is enough. Since a mic. operates by a threaded rod, it won't work for this method.
Mike
Carcano is correct that using a soft round ball, larger than the barrel, is much easier. I didn't comment because it was already done.

Ford:

Thanks for the info and I realize one cannot purchase but a round or two now. But 100 years ago when the cartridge had fanfare, what if a German owner went to visit an Austrian cousin & purchased a couple boxes of Franz Sodia, which were available @ the time. Would the Franz Sodia ammo have any adverse effects on this Suhl 6,5X70R? I am quite confident that most German & Austrian Hunters relied on their Firearms Merchant for the appropriate ammo.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Because before standardization, each area or Hunting area.region that a Maker had an influence had to have used the Maker's Gun & the Maker's ammo. So each area had a specific bullet diameter that closely matched the hunting guns of the area. Otherwise, there would have been dire consequences.


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

I am quite confident that most Hunters didn't have calibers, dials, etc. & had no idea of sluggin' the bore, etc. and were more involved with smokin' their pipe & yodeling....


So who exactly was bridging the gap on all these minute differences between kalibres and keeping it all sane? The Country Gunsmith - Firearms Merchant?


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,
these are interesting questions, but they will remain hypothetical without data.
I am interested in those 6,5x70R ammunition from Sodia.
Have you measured bullet dameter?
Do you have the cardboard packaging?
Any indication of production date?

Best regards,
fuhrmann

In blackpowder times, many German hunters reloaded their cartridges. Components and loading tools were listed in catalogs (e.g. Burgsmüller, Stuckenbrock) and available by mail order. These reloaders must have had a good idea what they were doing.
The other shooters depended on the local gunsmith/merchant, who also may have reloaded cartridges.
Note that the early ammo companies such as Utendoerffer in Germany or G. Roth in Austria also offered cases and bullets for reloading.
That gunsmith also sold new guns, most of them were sourced from outside: cheap stuff from Belgium, better grades from Suhl / Zella Mehlis in Germany, from Ferlach in Austria.

At the same time, those firearm manufacturers in Suhl or whereever tried to secure their business by chambering proprietory cartridges. The Brits did just the same.
There obviously was a lot of confusion, but with black powder and lead bullets the consequences of chambering the wrong cartridge were probably not too bad.

This changed of course with nitro powders and jacketed bullets. The need for standardisation became obvious. Reloading the new high-pressure cartridges was definity tricky, and sometime around WWI ammo companies such as RWS (formerly Utendoerffer) or DWM did a good marketing job by convincing hunters that they should buy loaded ammo only.
Reloading was still done for the 8,15x46R and the old BP cartridges, but that all faded away by or after WWII.

Reloading as we know it today was re-introduced in Germany after WWII by the Americans

Note added:
I have just read that CIP was founded in 1914. https://www.cip-bobp.org/en/cip
So there is reason to hope that in your specific case (6,5x70R, gun from the 1920s, ammo from ??) dimensions etc of German vs. Austrian ammo have been aligned

Fuhrmann:

Thank you very much for your contribution to my ramblings & >>what if....<<. And also for reminding about the CIP, which had members in 1914 but was interrupted due to the 1st Major Disagreement in Europe and things started to again come together in the mid 1920s.

I just wish there was more accurate bullet diameter data but @ the moment I really have nothing. Beating a dead horse, but I am most curious about the barrel diameters/stampings of German vs Austrian(6.8mm / 6.88mm) for the Austrian Hey-Day of the 6,5X70R(„Bleistiftpatrone = Pencil Cartridge“) where Franz Sodia was highly lauding the cartridge. By the way, he had a huge influence in Ferlach and was afforded many liberties by the Ferlach Proof Facility as his wares do not always have the full regiment of touchmarks. I see a few loaded 6,5X70R cartridges along but they wear a price-tag of $100. But if I can find a bona fide Franz Sodia headstamp, I will try to acquire it. Franz Sodia was the driving force(for some reason unbeknownst for now) in Austria and led the charge for the 6,5X70R in that region. I suppose an artikel on the subject would be beneficial with additional research.


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Ford:

I can appreciate your Socratic method of reply but I am looking for period data. I just am not of the opinion of there being a full array of bullet diameters for the 6,5X70R: Maybe one for the Germans out of Suhl, the cradle of the 6,5X70R(„Bleistiftpatrone = Pencil Cartridge“) and one for the Austrian version, where Franz Sodia was doing all the heavy lifting and totin' the mail. And I am positive he was involved purely for the Benjamins($,€,£,¥).

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

One other question I have is if 6,5X70R(„Bleistiftpatrone = Pencil Cartridge“) chamberings were exported to any other countries? Probably only speculation due to the passage of time and imports/exports but maybe catalogues might provide a little insight¿


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

And too with all the sluggin' the bore chatter from the 1800s/early 1900s, I have a request. I'd like to see one period(well maybe one from the late 1800s and another pre-WWII foto) foto of a Hunter with a caliber or dial around his neck; well maybe just in his hand....

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Here you go...


this is from a 1937 Hirtenberger / Springer catalog, labelled as "Preisliste für Wiederverkäufer" / price list for the local trade.
The cartridge is not listed in German RWS and DWM catalogs from the same period

Raimey,
You are quite right that you will not find a 100-year-old photo of a hunter with a dial caliper or digital caliper around his neck or in his hand. However, I do have a Mauser made pre-WW2 vernier caliper, somewhere under the pile of "stuff" on my work bench. My previous mention of these instruments was only in regard to approximating a measurement of the diameter of a slug representing the groove diameter of a barrel with an uneven number of grooves by a current handloader. Off brand dial calipers and digital calipers are so cheap today, I can't imagine anyone trying to handload without one or the other. I find a digital caliper very helpful in converting from imperial to metric dimensions and back.
There seems to be confusion regarding proofmarks and their relationship to nominal caliber of the ammunition. The numbers on the barrel only represent the dimensions of the barrel's chamber and bore (or grooves if Austrian). The nominal caliber on the barrel (if one is shown) is only the name given to the cartridge intended to be used in the gun. Where there is no Nominal caliber shown (almost all pre- 1939 German proof law German guns) a popular mistake is to take the "proof mark numbers" as the nominal caliber (imagine an inexperienced store clerk trying to find 7,8/57 ammo).
As to your question of whether " Franz Sodia" loaded ammo can be used in a Suhl made rifle: disregarding the fact that I don't believe Franz Sodia loaded ammunition, there is not enough information to answer the question. We only know that you have an Austrian drilling with a rifle barrel proofed as having a 6.8mm groove diameter barrel. We know (or believe) the German loaded ammo has 6.56mm/.261" bullets, but do not know the bullet diameter of the Austrian ammo. The answer to whether you can use the German .261" ammo in the .268" barrel is, disregarding accuracy, yes. But answering the question whether you can use the Austrian ammo in a Suhl made gun is like answering the question, how long is a piece of string?
When we play with guns chambered for obsolete cartridges, we have to consider working out the attendant problems as part of the challenge and fun, even if it requires buying and learning to use different equipment and tools. You may be the only person in Alabama that has and can shoot a 6.5x70R. Good Luck, War Eagle.
Mike
I noted from fuhrmann's attachment that the Austrian nominal designation of this cartridge is 6.6x70 in keeping with their tradition.
Mike

Franz Sodia did have ammo made as such exists w/ his headstamp; might have been proprietary? And I am quite sure he didn't use a stencil set & put his name on there himself. But for now I do not know the bullet diameter. But in your circumlocution reply above you still fail to compare the „Suhl“ diameter to the »Ferlach« diameters, which should be related by the depth of the rifling, which has to have an average.

So you are tell me this Sunday Lady/Lad Shooter/Hunter owned a dial caliper, which she kept in her hunting bag/purse & slugged the bore. I think not. I understand critical data is missing, but the data that we do have points to the fact that 6,5x70R from the cradle „Suhl“ is quite different than that of »Ferlach«. The two should have a relationship solely by equation since all the pertinent data hasn't surfaced just yet. It would be similar to „Suhl“ + Rifling = »Ferlach«, where Rifling cannot equal zero.


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

That Collath bullets sounds very interesting.

Many thanks Fuhrmann for the info & for feeding the beast.


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Too, 1937 info/data is fine but we just do not want stay outside of the 1939 German rules. That would be a separate mining effort and possibly the Austrian hunters were forced to choose ammo with different diameter bullets post 1939 or WWII; then again it may have just been a regional thing that they didn't change from the very beginning.


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

No if there is a bullet diameter difference between the Suhl Cradle & the Austrian version of 6,5X70R, which I propose there is, the the equation „Suhl“ + Rifling +(could be +/-) bullet diameter difference = »Ferlach«. This will compare apples to apples getting us closer to the actual truth and cease the Socratic Method & Circumlocution ramblings.

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,
If Sodia had a request for a 6.5x70R drilling and chose to use a barrel blank they made for a 6.5x57R instead of tooling for a special barrel, and the proof house properly marked it as having 6.8 mm grooves, there would be no obligation for the ammunition manufactures to change the bullet diameters in cartridges they loaded to be used in everyone's 6.5x60R rifles. Proof marks give information on the rifle; they give no information on ammunition. The text on the ammunition box gives information on the ammunition, it gives no information on the rifle. Obviously, it is related but it is up to the shooter make sure they are comparable. With regard to calipers, everyone reloading ammunition needs appropriate measuring instruments. If they are only shooting factory ammo loaded to accepted criteria, they need no measuring instruments at all, but then they can't shoot guns chambered for obsolete ammo. You are blessed with a nice drilling that can use bullets you don't have to make or modify. You should be happy with that; you will have enough trouble with the cases. You will still need to measure them to determine if and how much to trim them. As regards the Collath bullets: somewhere you should have the GGCA "DER WAFFENSCHMIED" special about Collath and you will find information about these bullets in the copy of their catalog that came along with it.
Mike

Raimey,

I too do not believe this theory. The only handle you have is a barrel marked 6.8.
I just had a look in Dixon's book and found this. Obviously Sodia sourced his proprietary ammunition from RWS in Nürnberg.
See the headstamp bottom right

While I am at it, here is the page from RWS Wiederladen

Ok, interesting load data.


But as usual, I am wrong, wrong, wrong...... So with a 6,8mm stamp, what exactly is the associated bullet diameter ¿¿¿

Is it the same as Suhl¿

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I just do not think the tolerances were as close as many expect. Too, in no way, shape or form do I think the end user had an idea of the barrel diameter much less the bullet diameter. They went to their preferred ammo retailer & asked for ammo.



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
That is absolutely correct, but they were not in the position of having to make their own ammo and needing actual dimensions to do it.
Mike