doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Jakob Koschat-Josef Winkler's Nachfolger-Borovlje

I will have to mine data a bit, but with this advertising >>Jakob Koschat - Josef Winkler's Nachfolger<< I think post 1970s or 1980s there may have been a Josef Winkler - Jakob Koschat's Nachfolger...... Something like that. I must check...


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Most of that was WRONG, so I will give you the halfway real genesis instead, and then Axel Eichendorf or some ammunition specialist from the IAA forum may add the REAL real genesis to it. ;-)

This famous "pencil cartridge" was developed in the ambit and under the aura of famous Prussian and Imperial grand master of shotgunning and ballistics Albert Preuß. He had assembled a small group of enthusiasts who regularly met, once or twice a year, at a "Ballistischer Congress", and who of course corresponded assiduously in the meantime. Ammunition manufacturers, dealers, gunsmiths, ballisticians, one or the other officer, and also talented amateurs (dilettanti, in the positive sense). The latter were usually foresters or "gentlemen of independent means", who indulged in such noble pastime.
The longer biographic story of Preuß is rather hidden (!) here:
https://fk-wurfscheibe.de/tag/stockholm-1912/

In our case, it was the interested and curiously-minded manor owner (Gutsbesitzer) Alfred Ungewitter, on Roßdorf manor near (Raguhn-)Jeßnitz. The next big city is infamous Bitterfeld. There are two Roßdorfs, not even far apart, and this one is *NOT* the one with the famous park and maze. Actually, the still extant "manor house" is a rather minor and modest building:





on the grounds of a former Eisenhammer (hammer forge or iron hammer); the small street still bears this old name.



The 6,5x70R was smokeless since its ineption, which is situated in the first years of the 20th century, probably between 1911/12, when Ungewitter seems to have interested Sauer & Sohn in a collaboration. The first ammunition manufacturer to produce it seems to have been Georg Roth (in Preßburg / Pozsony, in the Hungarian part of the double monarchy) . The cartridge was no doubt discussed and described in the two journals "Schießwesen" and "Schuß und Waffe" at the time.

Carcano

Raimey,
In your story of how you acquired the drilling and 6.5x70R ammo, I took note of the seller's statement that he had trouble with the cases cracking and he couldn't get a handle on annealing them. Is the ammo "factory" or is it handloaded? If handloaded, was it loaded using factory cases or cases formed from another caliber case? I suggest you don't shoot any of the ammo until you work it out. Original ammo would be pretty old and cases could be brittle from age. If the ammo is loaded in cases redrawn from some other cases they may be work hardened and brittle from the process (on the other hand, you would think someone that could redraw cases would anneal them, but maybe not far enough down. Did he send the split cases?). It might be to save the remaining cases, you need to break the ammo down and anneal the cases before they split. If you have split cases, can you post photos of the splits and the headstamps?
Mike

Ford, all the brass, ammo, whatever I have seen as of late has all been Unfinished Bertram. Yes, there is Bertram Brass loaded w/ a lead 0.266" 130 grain bullets. Indeed, I will pull the bullets & burn a little unknown powder. I was thinking of VV 550 for now?


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Frightfully sorry there 7,35 Carcano, but I must have missed that issue of „Schuss & Waffe“, or maybe it just wasn't delivered. But that seems to be the German side of the story. As you well know, there's your side, the other side & then the truth in every tale......

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,
This is a very neat triple gun, worth every Schilling and Grosch.
Cheers,
Jani

Jani, I am actually somewhat indebted - and very grateful - to Raimey that he has inducted me to research deeper into Ferlach's history, and notably into wider Carinthian history.

From the Cillier Sprachenstreit (pettiness extreme on the part of the German speakers) over the Kärntner Abwehrkampf (heroical and successful, yet soon jingoistically abused by sabre-rattling "alldeutsche" nationalists), to the important US role (Lt.Col. Sherman Miles and the Miles Commission) for the future of Austrian Carinthia, back then.

A quick foray via Google Street View at least comforted me to learn that the vicious Kärntner Ortstafelstreit, although that violent "convoy of shame" originally departed from Ferlach in 1972, seems not to be reflected in any way by the Ferlacher city limit signs ;-).

Still, I am ashamed as a German speaker about the role and the past intransigence of the Kärntner Heimatdienst; its appears that the old trenches have very long been manned and staffed, with fixed bayonets, and are only slowly being left since 2005 or so?

Regards und beste Grüße,
Carcano

Raimey,
I don't use Bertram cases, so I can't speak from firsthand experience, but over the years have seen others complain about Bertram cases, some that the cases were brittle. I think Bertram provided the cases and someone else loaded the ammo. The use of .266" bullets is also a concern, but if justified may be a blessing in the long run. You should "slug" the barrel to find out the actual groove diameter. The cartridge was intended to use .260-1" bullets, like the 6.5x48R and 6.5x58R, but if the maker did use the more modern .264" groove diameter barrel, you would be freed from the requirement to resize jacketed bullets. Bertram cases are very expensive and to save as many as possible, I would pull the bullets, empty the powder and deprime. Then I would anneal the cases (taking note of where the previous owner experienced splits) and fireform them with a filler and no bullet. This method of fireforming is much easier on the cases than firing a full power bulleted load to fit the cases to the chamber. Hint: try one or two first to test the procedure before pulling all the bullets. If the annealing and fireforming is successful, load some with bullets and a mid-level load and try them. Neck size the cases when loading these, to provide the cases with as much support from the chamber walls as possible. Good luck, I hope it works out.
Mike

Really Ford, decap too..... I only have say 19 to pull. I think all the cases have been trimmed to length but I will check them all. I do plan to start w/ 3 sticks of brass & move towards fire-forming......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Jani:

Indeed & add in every pětka, Kronen, Koruna, etc. that I had stuck back to pry the Trojčica from his hands & send it my way.

Without glass, The Sunday Lad - Lady trocevka weighs in @ 3265 grammes or almost 7 lbs on the nose....

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse