doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Jakob Koschat-Josef Winkler's Nachfolger-Borovlje

Raimey,
I hesitate to say " always" because that word is so final. The Germans usually used the bore "not groove or bullet" diameter, but the Austrians usually used the groove (or bullet, not always the same) diameter. Sometimes case length of Austrian cartridges is shown as longer than a similar German cartridge would be, because they sometimes add a mm for rim thickness. I wouldn't expect barrel measured at 6.8mm to slug at .257" (a German 6.8 would represent bore diameter, an Austrian 6.8 would represent the groove diameter, slugging a barrel gives the groove diameter). This is why you should "slug" the barrel to determine the diameter of the bullet you need to use and don't depend on the marking for that.
Mike

It might be even more helpful to procure modern 6,5x70R boxer cases from the usual suspects, namely Johannsen (once Horneber, whose machinery was bought by Johannsen in 2021 or so), SHM, Dorfner in Vienna (who also loads cartridge ammo) and possibly Bertram.

Carcano

Well Ford, let me ask this: on an Austrian stamp of 6.8mm, how many mm or thou less would you expect the bore to slug?

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,
6.8 mm, if I remember correctly is .268" and you slugged the barrel at .266", but other barrels may be something different. Count your blessings that you can use modern .264-5" bullets and not have to size them to .261", as I do.
Mike

Aright Ford, and anyone else who wishes to toss an opinion. Purely Hypothetical: Let's say I have a Suhl Rifle in 6,5X70R from the cradle where the 6,5X70R was designed, developed and made. And the tube is stamped 6,5X70R. And let's say Sauer is selling ammo....

I also have a Franz Sodia rifle 6,5X70R stamped 6.8(or 6.88 for that matter) and I have Franz Sodia ammo.

Say I shoot out of Franz Sodia ammo, can I purchase Suhl 6,5X70R ammo and shoot it through my Franz Sodia???

Of say I ran out of Suhl, cradle of the 6,5X70R, can I insert a Franz Sodia round in my German made 6,5X70R without any worries? Inquiring minds would like to know......

If I had an original round, one from Suhl the cradle of the 6,5X70R and one with a headstamp Franz Sodia, would the bullet diameters be exactly the same?

I am quite confident that the bulk of the Austrian hunters were not resizing their bullets......

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Ford:

I again slugged it with one of the 130 grain bullets that accompanied it. What is the best method to obtain the smallest diameter of the bore; i.e., where is is best to measure on the slugged bullet? I assume rotate it a full round?

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

It is widely - maybe generally - not recommeded that one attempt (!) to slug a barrel with the whole bullet. For two resons.

Firstly, the bearing surface would be too long; it is preferred to use a somewhat oversized round ball (so that only a deformed driving band remains flat around the circumference), or a rather short cylindrical body.

Secondly, a plug used for slugging must be dead soft. Antimony-hardened lead (as in cartridge rifle bullets) or gas checks are inappropriate.

Thirdly, but you will certainly have observed this, the barrel and the slug should be well oiled. I mention this only for completeness' sake.

Carcano

Yes & No. There is more here than meets the eye. There was some Magic & Voodoo involved in order to make the task @ hand a bit easier......

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,
First of all, you will not be able to buy 6.5x70R ammo loaded by any commercial manufacturer in either Suhl or Austria; you will either have to load it yourself or have a custom handloader load it for you. Whoever loads the ammo will have to match it to the rifle (within accepted tolerances). The nominal caliber is only the "name" of the cartridge the gun is chambered to use. Some "names" are established to fit actual dimensions, some are established to fit nominal dimensions (6.5mm is .256", but a nominal 6.5 mm bullet is .264-5" or 6.7mm diameter). Some cartridges have different names to avoid confusion but use the same size bullet (.218 Bee, .219 Wasp, .220 Swift, .221 Fireball, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, and .225 Winchester all use .224"diameter bullets), some have the same nominal size but different actual size (38 S&W Special is .357", 38S&W is .361", 38Colt is .375"), sometimes the same cartridge has different names for advertising (38S&W and 38Colt New Police are the same). Some people think the metric system avoids confusion, but subject of this thread shows that is not entirely true. As long as commercial ammo is available, using ammo that matches the nominal caliber of the gun is correct. However, once you have to load your own ammo, you have to make sure the components match the gun. Custom handloaders should also match components to the gun. Failure to do this results in ammo that may not chamber or may not perform well or may be dangerous. Whoever loaded the ammo that came with your rifle, correctly matched the bullet to the actual groove diameter of the rifle rather than matching the nominal diameter. The difference is the manufacturer of the gun used a barrel that matched the diameter of a nominal 6.5mm bullet rather than the actual dimensions of the cartridge established by the designer. Since you can't buy ammo for your gun at the local "Mal-Mart", as long as you understand the difference and use the correct components, your rifle will perform as intended.
To measure the slug, measure across the lands of the slug to determine the groove diameter of the barrel. This is fine as long as the barrel has an even number of grooves and the mic. or caliper measures land to land on the slug. If the barrel has an uneven number of grooves the mic. will measure from land to groove and give an incorrect measurement unless you use a special micrometer made to measure such slugs. A correct measurement can be approximated by a couple different methods, one of which is to rotate the slug between the jaws of a dial or digital caliper as you mentioned. You don't have to rotate it a full round, if you are careful rotating over one land to the next is enough. Since a mic. operates by a threaded rod, it won't work for this method.
Mike
Carcano is correct that using a soft round ball, larger than the barrel, is much easier. I didn't comment because it was already done.

Ford:

Thanks for the info and I realize one cannot purchase but a round or two now. But 100 years ago when the cartridge had fanfare, what if a German owner went to visit an Austrian cousin & purchased a couple boxes of Franz Sodia, which were available @ the time. Would the Franz Sodia ammo have any adverse effects on this Suhl 6,5X70R? I am quite confident that most German & Austrian Hunters relied on their Firearms Merchant for the appropriate ammo.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse