doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Jakob Koschat-Josef Winkler's Nachfolger-Borovlje

Because before standardization, each area or Hunting area.region that a Maker had an influence had to have used the Maker's Gun & the Maker's ammo. So each area had a specific bullet diameter that closely matched the hunting guns of the area. Otherwise, there would have been dire consequences.


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

I am quite confident that most Hunters didn't have calibers, dials, etc. & had no idea of sluggin' the bore, etc. and were more involved with smokin' their pipe & yodeling....


So who exactly was bridging the gap on all these minute differences between kalibres and keeping it all sane? The Country Gunsmith - Firearms Merchant?


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Raimey,
these are interesting questions, but they will remain hypothetical without data.
I am interested in those 6,5x70R ammunition from Sodia.
Have you measured bullet dameter?
Do you have the cardboard packaging?
Any indication of production date?

Best regards,
fuhrmann

In blackpowder times, many German hunters reloaded their cartridges. Components and loading tools were listed in catalogs (e.g. Burgsmüller, Stuckenbrock) and available by mail order. These reloaders must have had a good idea what they were doing.
The other shooters depended on the local gunsmith/merchant, who also may have reloaded cartridges.
Note that the early ammo companies such as Utendoerffer in Germany or G. Roth in Austria also offered cases and bullets for reloading.
That gunsmith also sold new guns, most of them were sourced from outside: cheap stuff from Belgium, better grades from Suhl / Zella Mehlis in Germany, from Ferlach in Austria.

At the same time, those firearm manufacturers in Suhl or whereever tried to secure their business by chambering proprietory cartridges. The Brits did just the same.
There obviously was a lot of confusion, but with black powder and lead bullets the consequences of chambering the wrong cartridge were probably not too bad.

This changed of course with nitro powders and jacketed bullets. The need for standardisation became obvious. Reloading the new high-pressure cartridges was definity tricky, and sometime around WWI ammo companies such as RWS (formerly Utendoerffer) or DWM did a good marketing job by convincing hunters that they should buy loaded ammo only.
Reloading was still done for the 8,15x46R and the old BP cartridges, but that all faded away by or after WWII.

Reloading as we know it today was re-introduced in Germany after WWII by the Americans

Note added:
I have just read that CIP was founded in 1914. https://www.cip-bobp.org/en/cip
So there is reason to hope that in your specific case (6,5x70R, gun from the 1920s, ammo from ??) dimensions etc of German vs. Austrian ammo have been aligned

Fuhrmann:

Thank you very much for your contribution to my ramblings & >>what if....<<. And also for reminding about the CIP, which had members in 1914 but was interrupted due to the 1st Major Disagreement in Europe and things started to again come together in the mid 1920s.

I just wish there was more accurate bullet diameter data but @ the moment I really have nothing. Beating a dead horse, but I am most curious about the barrel diameters/stampings of German vs Austrian(6.8mm / 6.88mm) for the Austrian Hey-Day of the 6,5X70R(„Bleistiftpatrone = Pencil Cartridge“) where Franz Sodia was highly lauding the cartridge. By the way, he had a huge influence in Ferlach and was afforded many liberties by the Ferlach Proof Facility as his wares do not always have the full regiment of touchmarks. I see a few loaded 6,5X70R cartridges along but they wear a price-tag of $100. But if I can find a bona fide Franz Sodia headstamp, I will try to acquire it. Franz Sodia was the driving force(for some reason unbeknownst for now) in Austria and led the charge for the 6,5X70R in that region. I suppose an artikel on the subject would be beneficial with additional research.


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Ford:

I can appreciate your Socratic method of reply but I am looking for period data. I just am not of the opinion of there being a full array of bullet diameters for the 6,5X70R: Maybe one for the Germans out of Suhl, the cradle of the 6,5X70R(„Bleistiftpatrone = Pencil Cartridge“) and one for the Austrian version, where Franz Sodia was doing all the heavy lifting and totin' the mail. And I am positive he was involved purely for the Benjamins($,€,£,¥).

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

One other question I have is if 6,5X70R(„Bleistiftpatrone = Pencil Cartridge“) chamberings were exported to any other countries? Probably only speculation due to the passage of time and imports/exports but maybe catalogues might provide a little insight¿


Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

And too with all the sluggin' the bore chatter from the 1800s/early 1900s, I have a request. I'd like to see one period(well maybe one from the late 1800s and another pre-WWII foto) foto of a Hunter with a caliber or dial around his neck; well maybe just in his hand....

Lep Pozdrav,


Raimey
rse

Here you go...


this is from a 1937 Hirtenberger / Springer catalog, labelled as "Preisliste für Wiederverkäufer" / price list for the local trade.
The cartridge is not listed in German RWS and DWM catalogs from the same period

Raimey,
You are quite right that you will not find a 100-year-old photo of a hunter with a dial caliper or digital caliper around his neck or in his hand. However, I do have a Mauser made pre-WW2 vernier caliper, somewhere under the pile of "stuff" on my work bench. My previous mention of these instruments was only in regard to approximating a measurement of the diameter of a slug representing the groove diameter of a barrel with an uneven number of grooves by a current handloader. Off brand dial calipers and digital calipers are so cheap today, I can't imagine anyone trying to handload without one or the other. I find a digital caliper very helpful in converting from imperial to metric dimensions and back.
There seems to be confusion regarding proofmarks and their relationship to nominal caliber of the ammunition. The numbers on the barrel only represent the dimensions of the barrel's chamber and bore (or grooves if Austrian). The nominal caliber on the barrel (if one is shown) is only the name given to the cartridge intended to be used in the gun. Where there is no Nominal caliber shown (almost all pre- 1939 German proof law German guns) a popular mistake is to take the "proof mark numbers" as the nominal caliber (imagine an inexperienced store clerk trying to find 7,8/57 ammo).
As to your question of whether " Franz Sodia" loaded ammo can be used in a Suhl made rifle: disregarding the fact that I don't believe Franz Sodia loaded ammunition, there is not enough information to answer the question. We only know that you have an Austrian drilling with a rifle barrel proofed as having a 6.8mm groove diameter barrel. We know (or believe) the German loaded ammo has 6.56mm/.261" bullets, but do not know the bullet diameter of the Austrian ammo. The answer to whether you can use the German .261" ammo in the .268" barrel is, disregarding accuracy, yes. But answering the question whether you can use the Austrian ammo in a Suhl made gun is like answering the question, how long is a piece of string?
When we play with guns chambered for obsolete cartridges, we have to consider working out the attendant problems as part of the challenge and fun, even if it requires buying and learning to use different equipment and tools. You may be the only person in Alabama that has and can shoot a 6.5x70R. Good Luck, War Eagle.
Mike
I noted from fuhrmann's attachment that the Austrian nominal designation of this cartridge is 6.6x70 in keeping with their tradition.
Mike