doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com August Jung Viernau-5.6x61R vom Hofe Super Express

I have seen PCL 520 and notably Tubal 8000 being mentioned as especially suited for the 5,6x61(R). I have no experience with either propellant.

I appreciate the suggests, but I don't think I can get my hands on any of those Nobel products? They didn't seem to take hole when released here in the U.S. of A.?? I might, might get my hands on some Nobel Tubal 8000??


I am curious, what was the range of loads for either powders???

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Alright, my second series of 5,6X61R vom Hofe Super Express loaded w/ 44.4 grains of VV N 160 behind an 80 grain Northern Precision Bonded Bullet.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Hi there. Observations in no particular order.
- The recommendation of either Tubal propellant is founded in the reminiscence that Gehmann had their cartridge loading outsourced to Norma, who at some time used an unsuitable Bofors powder (probably not canister grade, I would surmise; and I have no idea whether it really was close to RP 5). Results (repeatedly): KA-BOOM.
When this was discovered (I think the DEVA e.V. was involved for expertise), they changed for a very progressive Vectan powder, either Tubal 7000 or Tubal 8000, and nothing bad happened ever since.
- Several German reloaders reported to be very content with H 1000.
- Careful with the bullets. Measure EACH bullet base with a micrometer before loading. Respective warnings were given for Degol and Romey.
- For obvious reasons, the 5,6x61R is a lot more dangerous than its rimless brother, if and when pressure goes wrongggg.
- 80 grains bullet weight seems feasible with the given twist, but is far above all European accustomed and recommended weights. I wonder whether a leadless projectile would not be the better choice then, e.g. HDB and Aero.

Carcano

Lovely info on the powder there 7,35 Carcano.



I would be more than happy to use 70 grains like everyone else, and I am curious as to just how many there are, but the stamps of this tube read >>5,1<< grammes so I would assume I a relegated to use that weight. That is unless all these stamps are adhoc and one just disregards and abandons that, then uses what everyone else is using??? And some of these bullets do weigh exactly 5,1 grammes.

I wonder why there isn't an >>Express<< Proof as the name 5,6X61R vom Hofe Super Express implies.....

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

When Christoph Funk advertized his then-new Mauser rifle chambered for the 5,6x61 vHSE, he noted a barrel length of 74 centimetres and a [IMHO doubtful] speed of 1130 m/ at the muzzle, with a 5 grams bullet of 26 mms length.
Load were a nominal (!) 3,5 grams of Rottw. Spez. Bl. P., which of course - being non canister grade - could be everything and nothing. My guess (only a guess) is that DWM used normal military Gewehrblättchenpulver as a start and phlegmatized it strongly. For every lot produced in the powder factory, phlegmatization was of course different, and hence the precise cartridge charge weight was empirically adjusted for this lot.

Just a couple observations. The common bullet weight was 77 grains, but weight was mostly important as to how it affected length (for accuracy) and velocity (heavier=lower velocity). Solid copper bullets result in longer bullets for the same weight and unless the shanks are grooved will drive pressures up. If you want a little higher velocity. you might try 70grain composite bullets. Carcano's mention of Norma using an unstable Bofors Powder brings to mind the fact that they replaced their "slow" powder N 205 with MRP back when I was a young man and others were still a "gleam in your old man's eye". Trying the more stable slow powder Norma MRP might be an option or going back to old and tested loads using 4350 or 4831. Some older 70 grain bullets proved unusable, not because they weighed 70 grains, but because the jackets wouldn't hold up to the velocity. New/harder jacketed bullets weighing 70 grains should be OK unless its modern length makes it too long for the rifle's twist rate. Old ballistic data showed two different velocities for the same bullet in the 5.6X61 vom Hofe SV. Unfortunately, it wasn't always clearly shown that the higher velocity (3700+fps) was only for the rimless version, and the lower velocity (3400+fps) was for the rimed version. It will be hard enough to achieve 3400+ fps with the rimed version and most older users stopped at around 3250fps to prevent damage to a fine rifle.
Mike

As Mike pointed out already, 80 grains is very close to the original 5 or 5,1 grams.
Switching to a lead-free bullet is in my eyes the worst thing one can do here, no gains except "lead-free", but potentially opening up several new cans of worms (besides finding the mentioned brands in the US).

Raimey, your reloads are looking good so far, no need to explore the limits.

Well, 3400 ft/s was easily to achieve in this morning's test w/ 44.4 grains of VV N 160 w/ a Northern Precision Bonded 79 grain bullet. I had one shot low in velocity; One @ 3200 ft/s; two that were 3425 on the nose and one that didn't register( this one may have been greater than 4k ft/s which would account for that?????). Zero signs of any pressure issues @ all but if the average continues to hover around 3400, I am officially done @ 44.4 grains. But it continues to be a Tack Driver, even with Iron Sights & trying not to shoot the Sunshades off.... It maybe, well it is the flattest shooting trajectory platform that I have ever shot. To put it into context, it is just chewing up a Evaporated Milk Can @ 30 metres with open sights. I can post a foto if there is interest..

So are y'all saying just abandon the stamps on the guns & go with what everybody is using?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I failed to mention that max case capacity for VV N 140 & VV N 160 is right around 55 grains. Therefore, 44.4 grains of VV N 160 nicely fills the case well into the shoulder.

I am prepping my cases w/ Oxy Clean & may reload again late this evening.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse