doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com J. Haugh Ballard Rook Rifle

...that's what I'm calling it anyway. New member joining to show and ask about this custom rifle I will be receiving soon. Made by J.T. Haugh, on a Ballard action. In .25-20 Single Shot, I can't imagine using it for anything but small game, but I love the way it looks in the seller photos.


Of course the first thing I will determine is is the Ballard action a cast or forged type. I hope forged. I already reload for .25-20 SS.
Next is are the sling mount holes made for a standard American sized swivel.
And importantly, what size scope rings will work on it? I want some elegant, lever type quick detachables. I have an old pre-centering Weaver K4 to go on it. What rings do you think would be best? Are the dovetails on custom rifles standarized enough to buy rings now and hope they'll fit? I'm looking at flat-bottom Kimber types...but should probably wait and measure the quarter rib.

Happy to be here.

Welcome to the forum, AZshot.

Lovely rifle.

In Victorian times (and quite a bit later) it would have been regarded as suitable for Roe deer, Blackbuck, Duiker and the like.

If the sling mount holes are non standard you could look for a silent sling with leather thong ends (or just make up a couple of loops with leather laces to fasten your sling strap to).

Parker-Hale used to make hooks with swivels attached but they tend to be noisy and could come unhooked at the wrong moment.

Thanks, I should have mentioned I'm in the USA. So our medium game are Coues Deer, Javelina, and Coyote! I'm in the west, in the state of Arizona.

That’s a really nice rifle. Congratulations on acquiring it. Has very elegant lines. Regarding the question about scope rings, there’s a member of the forum, his forum name is Der Ami (Mike), who seems to know a lot about fitting scope rings. Perhaps he will come along and provide some input. If not, you might try private messaging him. Regarding the sling attachment, when you get it in hand, it will be easy to tell if those standard swivel bases meant for standard American slings for example Uncle Mike’s quick detach (QD) swivels, or they are the larger eyes meant for a leather thong or steel hook like Parabola mentioned. The QD swivels are available in every gun shop in Walmart around the country, and you can easily see if one will fit appropriately. If a QD swivel is incredibly loose, then the holes were meant for a leather thong or steel hook. Just from the picture, I expect they are designed for standard QD swivels. Congratulations again, and let us know how it shoots!

Thanks, will do.

As a huge Ballard fan for the last 45 years I'm tickled to see another fine old Ballard rifle. Even if it turns out to be one of the cast actions the .25-20SS is still a great cartridge, just needs mild loads if it is cast. I can't give you any help with what rings fit until you have it, and can post what type of rail it has, and how scope rings might attach?
It really does have that "rook rifle" look to the build, and certainly whoever put it together had that in mind. A nice old Lyman or Fecker scope in the small game style would look appropriate for a rook style build. I have a Lyman 438 on my Ballard 3f Fine Gallery in .22LR.

Thanks, I always wanted a Ballard, for almost as long. Just never got one. Almost bought an original with an ivory ball in the ring 35 years ago, but we were newlyweds and too poor. I have a Shiloh I got back then, waiting 5 years for it to be built on order. This one popped up cheaply so I grabbed it, I already have a Low Wall Winchester in the caliber. The reason I'm not going for a long external mount scope is because I have 4 of those on other rifles. This one I want lighter and handier. If it happens to be super accurate, I may get a bigger power scope on it later. But for now, just a 4X plinking scope because I plan on carrying this out in the field, it's not going to be a bench only gun (I have several). I'll report when I get it.

You have a treasure as there were few better gunmakers than Jack Haugh. Member BDSteele should be along soon to comment as he was good friends with Jack. Congratulations!

Great little rifle. The Len Brownell rings were popular with custom builders during the time frame that I would guess that rifle was built. I have several sets that I will probably never get around to using. If it turns out to be made for those let me know and I may be able to help out.

Great find,
John

AZshot,
It is difficult to tell from the photo, but it seems that the quarter rib has dovetails or some other provisions for mounting a scope (see the light spots at the front and rear of the rib). If I am correct, I suggest you ask the rifle's builder what type was intended. If I am mistaken, I suggest you make arrangements to have to have your classic K4 mounted in Warne QD rings. If properly mounted, it is pretty hard to be dissatisfied with these rings. As far as the sling swivels are concerned, from the photo it seems American QD swivels should fit, but if not, I have had no trouble opening the bases up to fit. BTW, I don't know that much about fitting scope rings, I'm just old and have seen a few.
Mike

Thanks John, I will take you up with that when it arrives!
Thanks Der Ami, but the builder passed away in 2018. I will measure the rib dovetails when I get the gun. Looking forward to it a lot.

AZshot,
If the rings John offered fit, or can be made to fit they are excellent rings also.
Mike

I don't think Jack Haugh is around to ask any questions on this neat Ballard. If he is still with us he's about 96 years old I think?

J.T. Haugh passed in 2018.

Jack was an awesome gunmaker! His son Cole and grandson Jacob are still running the gun shop and may have information or provide any help you may need or want 8126543209. Great guys I visit about every 3 months to drop off and pic up projects.

I received the rifle and am extremely pleased with it. It's smaller and lighter than I expected, but I like that for a quarter bore. It's about 6 lbs when I heft it, my arms are calibrated pretty accurately. It has a 23 1/3" barrel. The bore is mirror bright. The lever takes a good amount of pressure to close fully against the stock, and the set trigger is just a few ounces. I'm rethinking my scope choice to be a smaller one, without an objective bell.

I would say that is one sexy rifle! I’ve noticed I tend towards smaller scopes myself as I get older. Enjoy and let us know how it shoots!

AZshot,
There is a youtuber that shoots a 25-20 SS among several other very interesting old cartridges. His site is: You Tube Steve B's Workshop. You might pick up some hints and loads. Have fun with that great rifle.
Mike

Thanks. I've been reloading for .25-20 SS and several obsolete related calibers for years. I have a Low Wall in the same round. The brass is the most difficult thing for these, but I have pleanty.

Have you dropped the breech block yet to check and see if it's a cast or forged action? If it's cast the area below the barrel's chamber will be hollow. If forged that area will be solid. If cast I'd be very careful with loads, even in .25-20SS in a cast action.
By the way, your breech block is from a cast action as the firing pin screw is below the firing pin center line. If it was from a forged action the screw is above firing pin center line, like my forged Pacific is:

I have not checked yet. I am not concerned with shooting my reloads in .25-20 SS in my Low Wall, nor this Ballard.

Fwiw, a friend broke a cast Ballard in half using mild .25-20 SS loads for schuetzen. I ended up buying the rifle from him after he rebuilt it with a new, modern receiver.

The low wall would not concern me at all.

I understand. But also this gun is tight, no cracks and looks forged to me. I'll check the inside later. Most of the people in the ASSRA say low pressure loads are fine, since I was a member back in the 1990s...what 35 years ago. But I saw that one that Garbe reported on. What were the loads? I may shoot black powder, but those generate more pressure. I know about the "spike".

If I knew the loads, I have forgotten them. It was 30ish yrs ago that I bought the gun. The gun, as I bought it was a .22, and it still is, living now in Kansas.

That low wall is the ideal action for a .25-20 SS, which is one great cartridge. I had one in a highwall (not so great a choice).

That is a pretty rifle. Good luck with it.

Full disclosure: I removed the block, it's hollow under the barrel shank, so it's cast steel. I will likely just shoot black powder through this one. But that means all my jacketed 75 grain bullets, as well as several boxes of factory Jamison rounds, can't be used. I do have a mould for a 85 grain bullet.
What makes me lean to BP is this gun (and all Ballards) was made before the Smokeless era. In Colt Single Action revolvers (which I also collect) everyone makes a big deal about not shooting smokeless until the guns were verified/proof for it, around 1905. So I shoot BP in several of my older ones. Then there are the damascus barrel shotguns - everyone says shoot BP. I'm well versed in reloading BP, and have pleanty.

What makes me lean to Smokeless or this gun is many experts shoot light smokeless loads in these Ballards, even cast ones. The gunsmith was pretty famous, lifetime achievement award through the Contemporary Long Rifle Association, made the Bicentennial long rifles from scratch, made many Africa guns, etc. He surely knows about a cast action for the .25-20 SS round, yet used one. Also, I wonder what the pressure (not velocity) of a .22 LR really is? Or any of the old rounds Ballard used in these with black powder? Finally, I've seen pressure curves before that show BP is a HIGHER pressure, but a more gentle spike. I'm on the fence.

The action that you're referring to that blew up might likely have blown up even if it was forged. The owner used 5744 and put a wad down against the powder to hold the powder back against the primer. At the least that will cause a bulged chamber, and if the load was a little heavier, or accidental over charged, then that's the result. Don't blame the gun for poor loading practices.

Smokeless powder is almost all I've used in over 3 dozen Ballard rifles I own. The only BP loads I shoot are when matches require me to shoot BP to compete. My loads are all under 20,000 psi and safe for old actions of any kind. I don't push my Ballard or other single shot loads, and I stick with cast bullets for all my shooting, whether the barrels are original, or rebarreled rifles. Just my personal choice.

I went with some old Kimber Big Game Rifle rings, and a K3 Weaver. Still large, but allowed me to move the scope back for the best eye position. These ballards have a very long action. Thanks to all those who were helping me with ring options. I'm very pleased with this rifle.

Perfect!

Good takeaways from this thread: Before firing, inspect the action internally for hollow cast portions and cracks. Many Ballards can use low-pressure smokeless (.25-20 light loads under ~20,000 psi), but stay away from compressed/wad-against-powder systems. Black powder produces softer pressure curves and is a safe substitute for the original pre-smokeless guns. When in doubt, have the weapon inspected or proofed by a qualified gunsmith before using contemporary ammunition.

I got the scope sighted in at 50 yds. That took a bunch of rounds, my boresighting was way off. I think it has good potential. Used FFF black powder, 86gr Ideal mold, SPG lube. By the way, I turned the target for the photo 90 deg to left. It was hitting at the bottom with a 6 O'clock hold.

Do not rule out coarser powder. When I shot this caliber, no matter what I did, 1.5 was better than 3f every day. Did not seem reasonable, but that's the way it went.

I'll try some 2F next. I might have some 1.5F, not sure. It was a pleasant firing rifle, nice set on the trigger (it was "breath on it to fire" light when I got it), and more accurate than my Low Wall Winchester in the same caliber, I believe. Will cast some more bullets and reload!


Though I will work up a load from the bench, this is really an offhand rifle (like most rifles). So I shot a couple rounds offhand at those same 5" bullseyes, from 50 yards. Hit in the black, which is always satisfying. I know, ...only 50 yards, and people shoot off hand schuetzen at 200 yards. I have too, but it's been a long time. I was pleased.

Thanks to this forum and the Safari forum, I learned about Keith straps. I got one yesterday, very pleased with it.

AZ shot,

The 25-20 SS is a nice, mild cartridge and has been chambered in relatively weak rifles like the Stevens 44 so I wouldn't be concerned if your Ballard is a cast action Ballard.

My first SS rifle was a Stevens 44 in 25/20SS and it was a very accurate rifle. I shot 86 gr cast bullets pushed by 2400 for about 1300 fps. It certainly is good enough for jack rabbits and ground squirrels. It also may be good for coyotes but it might be light for javelina.

In very old reloading manuals, there may be HV loads for the 25/20SS which people used in strong rifles like the Stevens 44 1/2 and Winchester HW. I would stay away from those loads as they are relatively high pressure loads.

Have fun shooting your new find.

A common conversion of a Black Powder load to smokeless is 40-45% of the BP load to 4198. Unique, H110, Lil Gun, and others will also work in appropriate amounts.
Miike

I've been on the fence about smokeless in it. I know our Ballard expert has always used it, and I'm sure it would be fine with light loads. Yet, at this point I've only shot it with black powder because I know, without a doublt, that's what it was built for. The last Ballerds were made long before Smokeless. In the Colt Single Action world, today everyone says you should never shoot a BP revolver with smokeless. Of course, most were during the 20th century. On the other hand, I'm not sure Ballard actions of this type were ever chambered in the .25-20 SS, they mostly shot a few long Marlin rounds. On the other hand (Fiddler on the Roof), those would have been about the same pressure...

I've sighted it in with FFF and cast Ideal 86 grain 1:20 tin to lead. It was showing potential, but I ran out of time that day. Need to go back.

With the early days of smokeless starting around 1895 a lot of BP firearms got shot with smokeless loads. Most with factory loads, and soon after by reloaders who began reloading with smokeless powders. I'm pretty sure back then shooters weren't as conscious or wary about using smokeless cartridges in their BP era guns as many are today.
Proper smokeless powders today are much safer than those early days when powder choices were limited, and low pressure smokeless powders didn't even exist. There are a number of smokeless powder choices today that operate at lower pressures than BP does when loaded to BP velocities. The key is using these low pressure powders and keeping velocities down to BP velocities. A good ballistic program also helps a lot for those new to old firearms like the Ballard rifle so you can not only see pressures and velocities, but also see a graph of pressure rise to know how fast a certain load reaches the pressure level and velocity.
Loading smokeless might not be for everyone, but it can and is done often and safely if care and knowledge is used in building ammunition. I've been shooting smokeless in my Ballard rifles for over 45 years now safely.

Thanks, I agree with this. I shot my old pre VP proof Colt SAA in Cowboy Action matches in the 90s with smokeless because we didn't worry about it in post 1900 made guns. But today, I'm trying to keep the gun and me safer. Because I do reload, and know all the work that goes into developing a load, testing powders, calibrating your scale often, checking that you aren't overpressure which can sometimes be a fraction of a grain...etc....it's too much work.

With Black Powder, I fill the case to the level of the bullet base...done. Cleaning isn't hard with a single shot. I never shot smokeless in my Shiloh Sharps in the past 30 years. If I can get an accurate target load in the Ballard with black, what advantage does smokeless give?

If a guy doesn't push the limits or try to hotrod old guns to their maximum loads then all the worries about minor deviations of scale calibration, powder testing, etc., etc. Don't come into play. Using mild charges of slow burning powders at BP levels wont be any more dangerous than BP loads in a Ballard action. Minor variations in powder charges might affect accuracy, but no more than minor variations in BP charges, and both will be safe.
The advantages of smokeless for myself are many. First off no wiping between shots at the range. I can shoot all week and never wipe my bores. Second my BP loads take me a lot of time, and a lot more steps to make up very accurate BP loads. I can make up 5 rounds of smokeless ammo in the time it takes me to make one round of BP ammo for a match. Cleaning for a single shot is indeed easy with BP, but must be done fairly soon; and the same applies to brass. I can leave my smokeless brass for years if I wanted to and no harm done. BP brass I drop in a milk jug with soapy water at the range, and clean it as soon as possible when I get home.
My rifles shooting BP get wiped after each shot, but once I get home I thoroughly clean the bores, and actions. Powder can and does drop into the action when extracting cases, and it can corrode where you don't see it inside. So I clean actions and bores well. Something I don't worry about with smokeless loads.
I'm not going to tell you that you need to shoot smokeless loads, just that it's not a necessity to shoot BP loads to make it safe to shoot a Ballard.

Thanks for the input, I do and would shoot smokeless in many of my old guns. Just not this one, it's too nice and the brass is too scarce and I'm not shooting a big match with it. I might shoot 20 rounds doing target workups. I will carry it small game hunting, what it's made for. I may shoot 5 rounds then. In neither scenario am I wiping the bore. I use SPG lube and a fiber wad, the bore is amazingly clean when I shot it the first few times, when home. This is not a match rifle to shoot 50-100 rounds in, like my Shiloh, or Stevens 56, or even more in my original Bisley in a cowboy match. It's a gentleman's Rook rifle, made in an American way, for small game hunting on a cool Fall afternoon. Mostly to carry and show off, but it will shoot.

The casting, pan lubing, sizing cases, priming, and dropping black powder down a copper tube (by volumn) is very easy and relaxing for me. I'm doing all with an antique Lyman reloading tool, which has an 86 grain bullet mould at the front. For me it's a chance to shoot the gun the way it was made to be shot. I might one day shoot some smokeless in it like I do my .22 Hornet, .32-20 WCF, .22 Savage HP, etc....but not right now.