doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

I put an intemperate response above. I'll ask Dave to remove it.

Gene,

I thought it was quite amusing, although jOe may not share my views.

It reminded me of the story about the group of Fenians lying in ambush for their English landlord.

After an uncomfortable few hours crouching in the gathering darkness one was heard to observe “I do hope that nothing has happened to the poor ould gentleman?”

Gene,

I don’t imagine you ever got to see the warmth and charm that was a bilious Bob posting, back in the day. THAT GUY was the likely Supermax inhabitant.

I’d suggest you leave your post up.

Best,
Ted

Investigating whether Reilly's engraved numbering of pair guns stayed consistent over the years. The earliest pair specifically labeled "1" or "2" in the extant database is SN 21339 a #2 gun dated to 1878. However, there are no photos of the number on the web site. The first photo of a pair number #1 is my 16 ga. 27853 (1886). The first #2 gun example is SN 24956, 1883. There are numbers pictured for 35543 (#1) and 35536 (#2) both dated to 1907. From the montage below this seems to indicate that Reilly engraving of these numbers remained the same over the course of 20 years which in and of itself is a kind of marker.



It's interesting that before the late 1870's there are no extant numbered pairs. I think driven shooting became popular in UK in the 1870's which may explain this; if there were no driven shooting, there would be no need for pairs or triples. In fact, the first Reilly advertisement for pairs and threes I've found so far is January 1882 - Royal Red Book ad. (There is a lot going on in this ad and is an perfect example of the value of researching them: It also shows
-- Reilly offering off the shelf guns as previously discussed,
-- promoting pigeon guns,
-- below line of sight hammers
-- using Hurlingham weights,
-- has the first mention of Whitworth steel barrels,
-- mentioned the Reilly private shooting range,
-- and also mentions the 1881 numbering convention for Oxford Street which changed in early November 1881).



A chapter has been added to the history reflecting the above:

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


*76A 1878-1885: Reilly Builds Pairs and Triples.

In the mid to late 1870’s driven game shoots first became popular in the UK. The need for rapid re-loading and evidently competition between upper scale shooters on these game shoots apparently created a demand for pairs and trios of identical guns that could be fired and passed immediately to a reloader whilst an identical gun would be put into play. These guns would be numbered “1,” “2,” “3,” and for many makers (not all, Boss being a prominent exception) would carry consequetive serial numbers. They were meant to be identical in all respects, weight, caliber, length of barrel, LOP, drop, trigger pull etc.

The first Reilly extant gun with a number is a #2 gun with SN 21339 dated to 1878. This might have been a special ordered since there is not another extant pair-numbered gun until 1883, SN 24956 (#2). Reilly did not begin to advertise pairs and trios until January 1882. After 1884 pairs became increasingly common and continued to be so until Reilly declared bankruptcy in 1912.

An analysis of the engraving of the numbers on numbered pairs seems to show continuity over the course of 30 years from the beginning of sales until bankruptcy.

Argo you are over your private message limit. Can't message you. I've found something that you might be interested in.

There is a Reilly 8 bore, SN 21083 (1878), U-L hammer-gun for sale in England for an estimated £150 - £250. It looks to be in excellent - unrestored condition - from the photos.
https://www.lot-art.com/auction-lot...LEVER-HAMMER-S/875-e_m-15.9.25-winterton

There are several points which make this worth posting - if nothing more than a reminder: 1) Reilly did not engrave most of his big bore shotguns - they were simple, straightforward. 2) the big-bore shotguns, like his rifles had pistol grips. 3) this one appears to have an interesting Damascus pattern barrels and they are 31" which is about right for an 8 bore though they can go up to 34". For the price, it might be worth looking at:

The Guntrader.uk web site is cumbersome to use. You cannot search the database using a key word. In fact the only way to search for an obscure maker like Reilly is to use google and search "guntrader Reilly." (I mentioned this to one of their moderators a couple of years ago and got roundly insulted for the effort; I guess some are thin-skinned - wouldn't last a day on this board).

This said, the following advertisement has just been posted with a note "Image coming soon."
https://guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/reilly-e-m/side-by-side/12-gauge/hammer-250908121725007

Deactivated: E.M Reilly, SxS hammer-gun Shotgun; 12 gauge; 30" barrels, two triggers. 14 1/2" LOP, chamber 2 1/2", no ejector. Serial Number 10448.

10448 would date to late 1857. If this is a break-action Lefaucheux-type gun it could add substantially to the Reilly SN database: I've sent the following note to the seller: Hope to hear back with more details:

Sir, in reference to the Reilly SxS SN 10448: Photos have not yet been posted. However, this serial number should date to late 1857-early 1858.
1) What is the name and address on the rib?
2) Is this a break-action shotgun or a percussion gun?
3) If the former, is this a pin-fire shotgun and is it a forward facing Lefaucheaux type lever or around the tirgger-guard lever?
4). Could you please confirm the SN which should be on the tang behind the trigger guard, on the action flats (if it is center-break) and on the barrel. Many thanks. Gene Williams, McLean, Virginia

It turns out to be SN 20320, a 12 ga, SxS, T-L hammer-gun with a very long top lever - must less interesting.

Gene, you may not yet have this one on your list. It is in the upcoming Southern Counties Auction in Salisbury.

It was re-barrelled by Elderkins, a respected provincial gunmaker, in about 1970. I would guess that they would have charged about £300 in 1970 (about £6,000 in present day values).

Another gun in the sale , a best London sidelock by H. Atkin, has the paperwork to show it was re-barrelled by the makers in 1978 for £908 (now about £6,700).

Although I am a box-lock enthusiast I suspect that very few would be re-sleeved, let alone re-barrelled these days.

Thanks Para, that gun did not appear in any of the auction house libraries. That is the 729th Serial Numbered Reilly whose parameters are known, 2.2% of the postulated total Reilly made over the course of 85 years 1827-1912. We started with 125 back in 2016. This is a healthy number for a survey.

The dates on the chart have not had to be changed for some three years which seems to indicate it is now pretty accurate. More guns from 1835-1847 are needed in particular a start date for the "5000" J.C. series. These probably can be found in the collections of certain Maharajahs in India. Some friends there might be able to obtain access.

REILLY SERIAL NUMBERING MUFF-PISTOLS?:

This is a pedantic academic exercise to document thoughts on dating Reilly hand-guns in the 1828-1840 time period. It repeats to a large extent previous analysis of Reilly handguns but is a reconsideration. Welcome opposing analysis and ideas.

There are a pair of Reilly “muff-pistols” for sale on Guns International which have forced a second look at the early Reilly SN dating chart:
https://www.gunsinternational.com/s...d=Reilly&start_row=1&the_order=6


The SN on these two guns is “72.” (Note: Reilly used the same serial number for pairs during this period usually adding “1” and “2” to differentiate them). They have London proofs (early stamps). If this holds up, these are the earliest known Reilly SN’s yet found. But are these real Reilly Serial Numbers?

I. Analysis:

. . .1) Reilly advertised himself as “Pistol and Rifle maker” from 1828 continuously up to and including the 1841 census. He was clearly making, or engraving and selling, serial numbered pistols during at least part of this time.

. . .2) Reilly without question serial numbered pistols up to a point in time. At least four, possibly 5, extant SN'd pistols from 1828 while at Holborn Bars up until sometime after the August 1835 move to High Holborn exist. At some point after the move Reilly quit serial numbering – and probably making – hand guns:

. .. . . . .2A) There are clearly 3 SN'd "horse pistol" pairs SN’d at Holborn Bars + one Pepper pot from 316 High Holborn:

. . . . . . . . . . - 88 - a Reilly carriage pistol duo with documented sale in 1829 has been the earliest so far.


. . . . . . . . . .- 176 - a Reilly carriage pistol pair previously owned by Terry Buffum:
http://www.amoskeagauction.com/108/283.html
Description: serial #176, .50 caliber, 8 3/4" smooth bore octagon barrels with lightly oxidized bores. The tops of the barrels are each marked "J.C. REILLY, HOLBORN BARS, LONDON" and each lock is engraved "J.C. REILLY".


, , , , , , , , , ,- 254 - a Reilly carriage pistol pair referred to in numerous articles but never actually seen:
Terry Weiland
https://books.google.com/books?id=O...;q=reilly%20london%20shotgun&f=false


. . . . . . . . . .- 1271 - one Pepper-pot 1271 clearly serial numbered at High Holborn.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-c-reilly-of-london.cfm?gun_id=102993525
Description:
NSN, .42 Caliber, 4" barrel cluster with very good, lightly freckled bores. This is an 1840s-made pepperbox that retains much of the original color case-hardening on the barrels, with a bright gray patina on the balance. A similar amount of color case-hardening can be seen on the engraved bar hammer, while the engraved trigger guars has bright original blue remaining. The cylindrical frame has nearly all of the original bright nickel finish remaining with the maker and address on the left side, and "IMPROVED REVOLVING / PISTOL" on the right.


. .. . . . .2B)-- There were two “muff pistols” assumed to be serial numbered which were deemed to be important date markers:

. . . . . . . . . . .- 1024 - at High Holborn, which became the marker SN for the move.
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/a...lot-e25d3ca4-b9a7-497d-b030-a3fd003539d2


However, a second look at the advertisement in German shows that the address was High Holborn but the “SN” was actually refering to the Stöckels reference book p. 1024. This gun may have a SN but it is not published and thus now has to be deleted from the chart.
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/a...lot-e25d3ca4-b9a7-497d-b030-a3fd003539d2
Perkussions-Terzerolpistole um 1840 Joseph Charles Reilly London
achtkantiger, glatter Lauf, im Kaliber 8,5 mm, mit leichter Gravur an Laufmündung, sowie Signatur auf der Oberseite "Reilly 316 Holborn London". Mit Rankendekor graviertes Perkussionsschloss, Abzug klappt bei Spannung des Hahnes aus. Nussbaumholzgriff mit feiner, metallverstärkter Fischhautverschneidung, sowie fein geschnittener Eisengarnitur. Silberne Monogrammplatte auf Griffrücken unbenutzt. Joseph Charles Reilly - London, erw. 1830 - 1858 (vgl. Stöckels S. 1024). Gesamtlänge: 14,5 cm, Zustand 2

- 1292 – 316, High Holborn, which along with the pepper pot, became one of the two last known SN’d Reilly pistols. This ad is so specific that the SN, though not photographed is accepted because it is in metal (though the total lack of other muff-pistols having SN's has to be mentioned):
http://www.garthvincent.com/antique/1597/a+miniature+pocket+pistol/


. . .3). After the two SN’s 1271 and 1292 no other serial numbered Reilly pistols have appeared. At some point after the Aug 1835 move to High Holborn, postulated to be in 1837, Reilly stopped serial numbering pistols, though he continued to advertise, put his name on and sell thousands of all types.

II. Nevertheless, SN “72” raises the question, “Were muff pistols actually Serial Numbered?” Which led to additional research:

1) Here were some of the assumptions in trying to study this issue:
. . . . .A) Address – Muff pistols would have one of four addresses,
. . . . . . . . .1) Holborn Bars – 1828-1835;
. . . . . . . . .2) 316, High Holborn – 1835 – 1847;
. . . . . . . . .3) New Oxford Street post 1847, or
. . . . . . . . .4) simply “London” postlated to be post 1837
. . . . .B) Name:
. . . . . . . . .1) “J.C. Reilly” or
. . . . . . . . .2) “Reilly”:
It was postulated that “Reilly, London” began to be used in August, 1840 when E.M. apparently was brought into full partnership in the firm. At this time “Reilly, London” appeared in newspaper advertisements.
. . . . .C). Proof marks –
. . . . . . . . .1). London: It was assumed that Reilly SN guns would always be proofed in London at that stage. And a corollary: “If a pistol has London proofs, it could have a Reilly Serial Number. . . or
. . . . . . . . .2). Birmingham – with two assumptions: all pistols with his name without SN's would have Birmingham proofs and no serial number.

2) After a lot of research addressing these points here are the conclusions:
. . . . .A). There were “muff-pistols” made having all four early addresses from 1828-1847 – Holborn Bars, High Holborn, New Oxford Street and simply "London".
. . . . .B). The names on these muff pistols were as postulated, “JC Reilly” or just “Reilly.”


. . . . .C). The early Holborn-Bars muff-pistols do indeed have London proof marks but for at least muff pistols there is only one with an identified serial number 1292 as mentioned (And that now has to be questioned);
. . . . .D) Muff pistols with the 316, High Holborn address can be found with either Birmingham or London proofs (and no serial number):


. . . . .E). Two other muff pistols have been found with numbers stamped on their butts.


III. To sum up SN “72”,
-- it has “Reilly, London” name and address – which was previously assumed to be a post 1840 construct.
-- It has London proofs which was previously assumed to be associated with 1828-1837 Reilly’s. but which has been found on a post 1847 gun.
-- The pair have the same number on the butt stocks.

So is “72” a serial number? The conclusion must be that it is not. This is backed up by numbers stamped in two other muff pistol butt stocks “8” and “616” that are not Reilly serial numbers. Thus, believe that this pair likely was made around 1840 when the Reilly advertisements changed to “Reilly, London.”

Therefore, the only change made will be to the date for when Reilly's first gun was serial numbered at 316 High Holborn, this by eliminating 1024 as a serial number. There is a JC Reilly long-gun with SN 1174 but without an address. Thus the Pepperpot 1271 becomes the first extant serial numbered Reilly with a confirmed 316, High Holborn address. It therefore becomes the new marker gun for the move to High Holborn which will require some adjustment to the early dating chart (depending on the analysis of the pepper-pot patents, already looked at.