doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Rare First World War Survivor

Just viewed this again from 3years ago - one of the very few fully provenanced and intact Great War sniper outfits.

It is s pity Nick did not get round to opening up the middle case and hooking on the original Aldis scope to the Purdey mounts.

The story is that Methven was able to hang on to it as it was not Government property but a private purchase by Sir Abe Bailey.

The storekeeper may have thought it unwise to argue with an Officer who had killed so many Germans,

Very interesting although Nick's explanation didn't exactly "flow." Enfields have been an interest since I was first in Baluchistan in 1975. It was the weapon of choice in that area of the world where sightline were 10 miles up until the AK became ubiquitous. And in fact, when the US first armed the Mujahideen in 1979-80 they bought some 800,000 from Egypt (which turned out to be worn out).

Here I'm being given a Long Lee about 20 years ago.


I'll also post some Baluch with Enfields from 1978.

Nice rifle, Gene!

Clearly a very early one (with clearing rod in the bayonet lug) it seems to have been later converted to charger loading,

The Historical Breech Loading Small Arms Association have just posted on their YouTube channel Part 1 of Ian Frayling’s talk on the development of the British Service Lee.

Are the narks/inlays on the butt decorative or a score card?

I don't think a score card but don't know. The gentleman was a Sufi of high order and I had arranged some well-drilling help for some Pashtun tribes who needed it.

This is a very interesting rifle. In the beginning of the "Great War" (there was no WW1 until WW2 came along). Both sides were being cut to pieces with machine guns and a German officer, that was also a hunter, brought his scoped hunting rifle to the battlefield and had a lot of success shooting British machine gunners through the opening in the machine gun carriage's armor plate. Because of his success, the government asked the hunting associations to volunteer rifles that were chambered for 8x57I or IS and scoped to help with the war effort, until enough military sniper rifles could be manufactured. Because telescopes were in "short supply" the government kept the scopes and mounted them on the military rifles when they no longer needed the hunting rifles. I have a model 98 Mauser chambered in 8x57I that had unusual markings that turned out to be one of these rifles (Axel Eichendorff wrote an article about these rifles for WAIDMANNSHEIL). Now it seems the British may have also depended on hunters to arm their snipers.
Mike

The rare WW1 snipers SMLE includes it's Rifle #4 magazine I see.
With the #4 Rifle having come to be in the late 1930's, that is quite a trick.

I must admit I didn't listen to the link, just ran through it looking for a couple things. Maybe that's pointed out

I was looking to see if the socket marking were shown. I saw one distant quick look and it appeared as a Standard Military marking but partially obscured by the closed bolt handle as it would be.

Being a Private Purchase SMLE,,the piece would only be marked BSA&Co on the socket.
That is the spot normally marked with the Royal Cypher, year of mfg, Mfg'r name and the
designation MkIII or MkIII* on Military rifles.
(There would not be a 'No1' designation along with the MkIII(*) as that rifle numbering system didn't come about till after WW1,,around 1927).

Private purchase Enfield Rifles and Carbines as well as the sporters were available from BSA at least to WW1. I'm not sure about after that.
They are commercially proof marked, have the BSA commercial logo (3 stacked rifles) marked on the KnoxForm of the bbl along with another stamp that
indicates the rifle/carbine was made and sold as a Commercial product.

A private Purchase marked SMLE would have been plain as daylight over a Military issue SMLE. It's markings and then total lack of others (Military) telling a quick story

They are beautifully made pieces. I have both a commercial made MkI*** SMLE and a CLLE w/ Metford Safety.
The CLLE is also Retailer marked on the bbl.

The rifle would not have been a “private purchase” in the normal sense (service pattern rifle bought privately from a gunsmith) as Sir Abe Bailey underwrote the costs to the Union of South Africa of forming and equipping the unit.

I will ask Purdey’s archivist and historian if the records show whether the 24(?) rifles were supplied as part of Purdey’s Government contacts or as a separate batch.

Purdey received Government SMLE’s (presumably selected for accuracy) and Government Aldis scopes, and were paid £13 13s 6d per rifle to supply and fit their Purdey scope mounts.

Sights that were mounted by Purdey, later sold as surplus ftom broken up rifles p, are recognisable as the SMLE number was engraved on the scope by Purdey in their distinctive style.

In Martin Pegler’s out of Nowwhere” there is a picture (p.138) of the Sharpshooters in 1916 with pristine uniforms and unmolested SMLEs still full stocked as they would have left Purdey’s.

At page 142 taken in 1917 the rifles have been “sporerised” and camouflaged.

Legally Lieutenant Mehven, M.C. , may have been on shaky ground in arguing that his rifle was not “on charge” as Government property. However it is fortunate tgat he did or it would not have survived for posterity.

It was sLot 1105 in their December 2021 sale, the description reads:-

* ENFIELD, ENGLAND
AN EXCEPTIONALLY RARE .303 BOLT-ACTION SNIPER-RIFLE, MODEL 'BAILEY'S SHARPSHOOTERS No1MKIII*', serial no. 6140, WITH ACCESSORIES,
the rifle dated for 1916, with 25 1/2in. exposed barrel, the fore-stock deliberately cut back to 'sporter' style favoured by the unit 'Bailey's South African Sharpshooters' in 1917, the fore-sight unprotected, the elevating rear-sight retained, the top of barrel near breech fitted with a telescopic sight mount (currently loose), the top-wood adapted for same, open receiver with side claw mount, no magazine cut-off or long range volley sight, oval cocking piece, side safe, walnut butt-stock, the left side of butt carved with a circular panel containing ts 'B.S.A.S' around a depiction of a springbok's head, ten-round detachable magazine and fitted with a canvas webbing sling, together with its original Aldis Bros, London telescopic sight no. 68774, also dated 1916 and marked with a matching number to rifle, the mounts applied and signed 'J. PURDEY & SONS', complete with its leather carry case and shoulder strap, the instructions for use within the lid of the case, also an issue trench periscope by R & J Beck Ltd., also dated 1916 in its leather case and a 'TEL SIG (MKIV) G.G. four-draw telescope with additional high magnification eyepiece signed Negretti & Zambra, London. and complete with its folding wooden lightweight tripod; all part of the original equipment schedule

I’m enjoying these posts, lots of interesting history here. Argo, in your second picture it looks like you and some other men with meat cooking in the foreground. Tell us more about that picture if you can.

this is not meant to hijack this excellent line on Enfields but is a response to the above question on the background to that photo - it can be deleted if it offends.

I was posted to Karachi from around May 1975-November 1978. Baluch is a Persian derived language, perhaps the earliest existing variant of Persian - i.e. Indo-European. Early on I became acquainted with sons of Several Baluch Sardars who were hanging out in Karachi wasting their money. The Baluch comprise four groups
. . .–- Eastern - occuping Indus valley and Suliman Mountains in the Sind/Punjab/Baluchistan border
. . .-- South - along the Makran coast
. . .-- Central – Brahui including the Khan of Kalat speaking a Dravidian language occupying a wedge in the center
. . .-- West along the Iranian border, Seistan all the way up to Turkmenistan.
The fellows I knew were mostly from the east from three tribes Marri, Bugti and Mazari.

I was not supposed to leave Sind Province according to Pak law but went a couple of times up to Rojan and then by Jeep up onto the Iranian plateau. That photo was taken near Dera Bugti Khan, literally two days after Mohammad Daud Khan was overthrown in Kabul by the Communist Afghan air forces and the whole imbroglio started.

The Baluch roast meat (mostly goat) by building a fire around the meat on a stick rather that turning it over a fire. You’ll note the difference in armaments carried by the Mazari and Bugti’s in the Indus valley from this photo – in the lowlands it’s mostly shotguns.


As soon as you start to climb out of the valley, it was all Enfields.


Couple pertinent comments from the 1970’s: Pakistan is a tilted rectangle with essentially four major ethnic groups. Here is what they say about each other:
-- Punjab (Panj Ab – i.e. 5 rivers) – martial people so you “lead a Punjabi.”
-- Pashtun – Greedy and barbaric – so you “buy a Pashtun:
-- Baluch – tribal and proud – so you “treat a Baluch with respect,”
-- Sind – “Shoot a Sindi” and the corollary – “If you meet a cobra and a Sindi on a trail at the same time, shoot the Sindi first.”

Baluch were ostensibly led by the Khan of Kalat – a Brahui. (In fact they are led by nobody but their Sardars. The difference between a Baluch and a Pashtun though is that the Baluch actually pay attention to their Sardars and you could “control” the whole tribe by buying off the Chiefs. The Khan of Kalat spoke Dari in his court and ostensibly owed allegiance to the Ahmadzai Pashtun Kings in Kabul. As a result Afghanistan has claimed the Pashtun and Baluch speaking areas as rightfully their own and during the Bhutto years, there was a lot of tension.

Timeline:
-- 1977 – Bhutto overthrown by Zia
-- 29 April 1978 – Daud Khan overthrown in Kabul by Taraki; Saur Revolution – Red terror
-- Feb 1979 - Shah overthrown in Tehran
-- Oct 1979 – Taraki overthrown in Kabul by Hafizullah Amin
-- Dec 1979- Russian coup in Kabul and invasion - installation of Babrak Kamal
-- 1979 - CIA begins to arm Mujahidin with Pakistan assistance in earnest.
-- 1980 - Iran/Iraq war begins.
-- 1985 – Stinger missiles deployed in Afghanistan
-- 1986 – Babrak Kamal replaced in Kabul by Dr. Mohammed Najibullah
-- 1988 – Zia and US Ambassador killed in a plane crash in Pakistan.
-- 1988-89 – Soviet troops withdraw from Afghanistan
-- April 1992 – Najibullah falls in Kabul – Civil War starts
-- 1993 – Kabul destroyed by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar
-- 1994 – Benezir Bhutto and Pak ISI organize the Taliban in Quetta
-- 1995 – with Pak help, Taliban takes over most of Afghanistan opposed by the Tajik Northern Alliance.

Edit: Crossing the Hub River from Sind into Baluchistan near Karachi January 1977:



Notice Nice bell-bottom jeans. Pretty cool Rolex Oyster Perpetual Submariner from Vietnam Special Forces days. Left-hand drive American jeep from American Consulate. . Mohammad Alam, Sindhi fisherman friend, is the passenger. The other Jeep is right hand drive Pak-made jeep I later bought.

The one in the center of the pic, behind the two guys in the foreground, bears a striking resemblance to Osama Bin Laden.

Really? What makes you say that?

I appreciate Argo sharing those details. I enjoy learning about Enfields and related rifles. I don’t want to see the thread hijacked. I hope there’s more good history and info to come.

Stanley, the Baluch are not Arab and do not speak a Semetic language (Arabic) though they write in arabic script. When the Arabs took over Persia in 630AD the script had to have 4 vowels added. . .

The Persian alphabet (Persian: الفبای فارسی, romanized: Alefbâ-ye Fârsi), also known as the Perso-Arabic script, is the right-to-left alphabet used for the Persian language. It is largely identical to the Arabic script with four additional letters: پ چ ژ گ (the sounds 'g', 'zh', 'ch', and 'p', respectively)

because Persian is basically related to German, English, Italian. The word "Qui" ("who") is the same in Spanish, French, Dari, Pashtun, Baluch. So the guys in those photos are Indo-Europeans...and language doesn't lie.

Parabola, I apologize - I've hijacked your line. I have studied Enfields for a long time and let's get back to that.

No foul, , Gene, it was an interesting diversion!

Linguistic similarities can be interesting- and consequential.

Years ago a young Afrikaner complained to me “I told your British Police to “F*** off! - but in my own language- and they arrested me!”

I asked him what he had said in Afrikaans - “Vuk ov” - even in Sussex they could understand that.

Anyway getting back to my thread I have been scrolling back and found this with a little bit about the same rifle at approx 50 minutes in:-



I had hoped there was more, and he never seems to have done the separate video on it that he promised.

I was glad to watch it again as immediately after that rifle there is Nick Holt, clearly in hypnotic mode, telling me why I had to buy May Greener’s .410.

My maternal grandfather volunteered for the British Army in September 1914, along with his younger brother. He was sent off to the 16th (Public Schools) Service Battalion (the Duke of Cambridge’s Own) Middlesex Battalion. He became a battalion sniper; he was a talented football player and very good shot.

When aged around nine years old I recall him telling me about the trenches and his sniping. He did not enjoy the taking of another's life in what was, for that war, a somewhat personal way. I also recall him telling me about spotters who would stand out in no mans land inside a made up tree. I researched this and apparently a suitable tree remnant would be reproduced by the Royal Engineers from a metal cage with a hessian or similar material around it, then painted and made to look as much like the real thing as possible. The real tree would then be extricated during the night and replaced by the replica, into which was inserted a spotter, who reported back to the sniper with potential targets.

Like many Englishmen he went over the top on 1 July 1916, the opening day of the Battle of the Somme, near Beaumont Hamel. He was injured and lay in a shell hole out in no mans land under the burning sun. He was a religious man anyway and there he prayed and promised God that if he survived he would devote the rest of his life to the church. When early evening came he crawled to another shell hole, where he had heard someone crying out. Together they crawled back to their battalion lines. He was sent back to England and eventually re-joined his regiment for the rest of the war. He subsequently went to theological college and was ordained as a Methodist minister, devoting the rest of his life to God, as he promised.

And what has this to do with Lee Enfield's? He would have used one to snipe with. And when I was thirteen, in the mid 1960s, I became a member of my schools shooting team, using the .303 Short Magazine Lee Enfield No 4 service rifle, fitted with target sights. I ended up in the shooting VIII, shot at Bisley and subsequently went on to shoot for my own Regimental shooting team when I served.

Must run in the genes!

Tim

Another survivor of that dreadful 1st July 1916, but in less traumatic circumstances was Cyril Mackworth-Praed, the father of my late friend Philip Mackworth-Praed of the British Sporting Rifle Club.

Due to go over the top that day, Cyril was laid up when an Army dentist managed to break off a hypodermic needle in the angle of his jaw, almost certainly saving his life.

When his Scots Guards Battalion re-mustered at the end of the day, Cyril was the sole Subaltern remaining on the strength.

Distinguishing himself as a Sniper, he went on to win Olympic Gold in the Running Deer Doubles in 1924, and was the main author of a standard work on the Birds of Africa.

Seeking to sign on for the Second World War he was initially rejected as being too old, but was hastily called back when an Officer who had overheard the conversation and knew his history asked if they knew who they had just turned down?

He later taught sniping at the Commando Training School in Scotland.

All this history stuff is amazing. Thanks to all of you.

Gene- You've led a very adventurous life.

I I have now heard from Dr. Nicholas Harlow, the Purdey Archivist and Historian and with his kind permission quote him as follows:-

“That is an interesting discussion indeed. I did cover the Purdey production of Sniper rifles for the Journal (Vol 5, No. 1) in 2019, and so that has everythng I was aware of at that date. When I was doing the research, I never came across an invoice to Sir Abe Bailey directly for sniper rifles, and in some ways I don't think I ever could. From what I understand from Martin Pegler, seemingly backed up by our accounts, once any existing scopes in hand were used up all UK production was routed through the military. This means that it would have been impossible for Purdey to obtain scopes for a 'private purchase' order. I think that it is more likely that Bailey requested rifles from those that we had setup, and paid the British government for them, which could explain why Methven got to keep his.

I hope that makes sense as a theory. What I can confirm is that, as far as I am aware, there was no record kept of the serial numbers of the rifles that we worked on, and so I cannot confirm the provenance of individual rifles”

The Journal to which he refers is that of the Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association (HBSA)

somewhere down the road i have happened upon an fine condition copy of martin pegler's book - Sniping in the Great War - published in 2008, by Pen & Sword Military. it is a fascinating (and very well researched; including nine pages of footnotes to his sources) book that provides many insights into both the technical and human sides of the craft, as well as numerous photographs.

i have no idea about the availability of this book, but i would recommend it to any one with interest in the history of the great war.

On the topic of the Great War, here are some interesting photos, recently restored:

https://petapixel.com/2025/11/17/re...-and-humor-of-life-on-the-western-front/

The Lee Enfields are quite accurate. I got lucky and shot this group earlier this fall. Mine is a No. 4 Mk. 1.