doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle

Carcano,
Yes, I was a little disappointed, but not devastated, I have seen enough such guns (made for the trade and not fully identified) that I understand they were (and are) part of the normal business practice. They are the same quality as if they were marked as to the maker. Another common practice was the use of common parts by known makers, such as safeties, springs, trigger guards, levers, etc. While a lot of these parts were the same, some craftsmen may have used their own unique treatment while shaping and fitting them. As is the same with the craftsmen's "touch marks" there is no listing of known unique shaping or treatment of these parts. Unless a particular treatment is markedly different than the others (such as the escutcheon in question) there is little chance it can be identified. Sometimes though, the maker of one of the trade guns may install one of their normal butt plates. even though a retailer's mark appears on the barrel. This might be a good indication of the maker, unless the butt plate in an obvious (misfitting) replacement. Another hint would be where the gun in question was proofed. Shul makers sometimes traded with Zella Mehlis makers for particular guns, such as the common underlever single shot rifle, and these guns might carry ZM proofs while the ones actually made in Suhl would likely have Suhl proof marks. The 8x57R-360 Drilling I mentioned above has original ZM proof marks (but reproofed in Ulm), so it was likely made by a ZM maker. This is why our hobby is fun and interesting.
Mike

One addition on the Römerwerk (or Roemerwerk, if your keyboard like most is Umlaut-impeded). I wrote above: " The company details have been tentatively (but not really in-depth archivally) researched and have been partially documented in the "Germanhuntingguns" website, founded by Dieter Apel, rebuilt and mainted by Larry Schuknecht."

The last and possibly the most thorough research on them is hidden in a rather unlikely place. But it's six pages of text, hence not exactly short. Here:
https://portal.dnb.de/opac.htm?method=simpleSearch&cqlMode=true&query=idn%3D1294783467

And here is its table of contents, see pp. 10-15.
https://d-nb.info/1294783467/04

Carcano

Good catch on the >>RM<< pointing towards Römerwerk / Römer & Compagnie / Röhmer und Compagnie. It has the mm stamp as well as a Bullet weight of 7 grammes or similar. And there is some odd stamp just under the mm stamp. But it doesn't wear a Nitro stamp. So with the stamps @ hand, I would hazard a guess for the date being right around WWI. Too, there is a K in a jagged circled, ratchet, whatever that points to the tubes being formed by Kelber or Klett.

Those white additions to the grip cap & buttplate are more than like post WWII additions so more than likely there was some modification post WWII.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Dear Raimey, thank you for supporting my educated (or, as the case may be, maleducated) guess; which I as far as now would not yet dare call an "identification ". I had based it on the shape of one peculiar accoutrement part about which Mike Ford had asked me, namely an escutcheon on the right stock side. I called it a "claw" or "beak" shape, but maybe the expression "ratchet shape" would sound more professional. ;-)

Actually, there were not many suppliers who would furnish finished or semi-finished parts ("Gestecke") to the trade, just the same as in the Basque country or in Birmingham or in Ferlach. The trade knew their suppliers, and those also advertized _to_ the trade, but the general public would have no idea.
Apart from ESHA (Schmidt & Habermann) and Rö[h]merwerk, I believe that Sauer & Sohn and Simson both also had the necessary machines and mechanization capacity, but I do not know how far they delivered actually.

Readers should bear in mind that the proudly flaunted title of "Gewehrfabrik" did not in the least support the conventional image of large factory buildings with shed roofs and high chimneys, but more often than not merely indicated that its owner paid more than his own family members and free-lancing outworkers in some dingy cellar or attic by the piece, but had a - however small - number of employed workers / labourers who received some daily or hourly wage from him. If only for assembling and finishing the bought metal parts and stocks. Poor Gustav Zink would be a good example.

Now, the "R.M." abbreviation, which we all probably take for a name, is not really what prompted me to Rö[h]merwerk, because this latter used an RW or RWS signet.
I have not been able yet to identify any barrel maker, or tube knitter, or system mechanic among the dispersed info on the 'Net, who could have fitted (pun intended) these two letters.

Only much later, the obvious sprung to my mind, which was hidden in plain view. Yes, there *IS* an R.M., even a very famous R.M. whom we all know. Namely Richard Mahrholdt.
But this very Mahrholdt was not in Suhl at the time, in spite of his very tight links thereto. He was in Innsbruck then, working in a leading capacity in the languishing Peterlongo factory which he revived. He must have frequently travelled back and forth to Suhl, Zella St. Blasii and Mehlis, but why would he personally a stamp a rifle barrel on a trade drilling? Doesn't make sense.

Carcano

Yeah, one sees that >>teardrop<< crossbolt anchor ever so often, like on this O. Geyger:

https://waffenhandel-zwack.de/bockottoberlin



It looks like a teardrop / white patch on a Canadian Goose.



And the >>F.A.K.<< is most interesting & for the moment all I can muster is the name of Fritz Albert Keßler, but like many initials, that's a longshot w/a limb in the way......


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I don't even think Mahrholdt is in the equation as he spent most of his time floating about on his Super Yacht thumbing thru his magazine. But if the longarm was made in Z-M and if Max Möller had a hand in the sculpting of the tubes, then Richard Möller, if related to ole Max Möller, could be the culprit. I think the 1st order of business is to determine which Gunmaking Centre is its origin.

The 24 bore is a dandy wand to tote in the field & this year I chased Kansas Ditch Parrots with it. Not the Best for training Kids & Dogs, but with Good Dogs it performs well.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

From a purely aesthetics perspective, to mine eye it resembles a Meffert Hubertus/Treff and is unadorned as were many of their wares. With that said, Richard Meffert was @ the Helm of Meffert but I think Richard Meffert made his last file stroke in mid 1910??




Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Recall too that several Keßlers were Principals @ Röhmer / Römerwerk Waffenfabrik und Mechanische Büchsenmacher & Cie.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...barrels-make-offer-.cfm?gun_id=103353623


Here's a F W Keßler with the >>Teardrop<< Stock Fastener/Stock Reinforcement.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Robert Schrader w/ the >>Teardrop<< Crossbolt Fastener / Reinforcement

This example has all the bells & whistles and closely resembles a JJ Reeb or maybe a Foerster(Barella or O. Geyger) w/ those artistic bolsters. And too another neat feature is the 3rd lock/tube cocked / loaded indicator atop the frame.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...rader-drilling.cfm?gun_id=103298189#md-8



Anyone hazard a guess as to what these 5 pins in the floorplate might suggest or what part these 5 pins might play?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse