doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com W&C Scott & Sons PUN on an 1857 pin fire?

This question will be posted here because not everyone bothers with the Reilly history line. An early Reilly pin fire SN 10448 (November 1857) has been discussed on the Reilly line a couple of times. It was remade into a center-fire and a new SN added to the tang 20329 (1876) and address on the rib. The question comes from this W&CS&S 632 (W&C Scott & Sons PUN 632) stamped on the water table.

That's an early Scott PUN but what is it for? I have delved into PUN's before and there are virtually none that are consistent enough to allow for dating a gun. But as far as I am aware Birmingham was not involved at all in 1857 in making actions for pin-fires. In fact the earliest reference I can find to any Birmingham interest in the subject is the 1861 census where Breeden declared himself a center-break action maker. The PUN might have been placed on the gun when it was remanufactured.

I believe the Williams Scott firm became "W&C Scott & sons around 1858 to 1869. There is a long history of Scott on this line, probably from one of our contributors possibly from IGC.
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/w-c-scott-son-help-with-id-and-value.242236/

Any suggestions?

Wild guess...how about the Scott spindle/top lever?

Thought about that. But Purdey (pat 1104) had predominance and up until May 1877 when the Purdey patent expired, Scott took second place and was never mentioned.

Perhaps possible if Reilly were only using the Scott Spindle part of the incestuous pairing which would explain the low number and the name. This might explain the strange long top lever as well.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=665628#Post665628


Would really like to see the lumps but Holt's already has been so accommodating going back and photographing the numbers on the gun just to satisfy an academic curiosity.

Here is a cheat sheet on pertinent patents, many noted on Reilly's. Maybe "retractable firing pins?" but that was WM Scott, not W&C Scott & Sons.

Patents
These are pertinent patent numbers for this discussion many of which have been found on Reilly's and might be used to help date them - caution however; many guns were modified and updated so presence of a patent by itself does not definitively establish a manufacture date:
1855: Bore size stamp required by law (Note: Reilly may have been one of the few gun makers in London, Greener and Manton being two others, who routinely put bore size stamps on his guns before the regulation)
1858, 24 Sep - Westley Richards 2149, dolls head, top bolted, top lever
1859, 07 Sep - Jones patent 2020 - underlever (aka double-grip or screw-grip)(lapsed 1862, 19 Sep)
1860, May - J.D. Dougall "Lockfast" action patent 1128
1860, 15 Nov - Henry patent 2802 - 7 groove shallow rifling. Extended for 4 years on 15 November 1874.
1861 - Daw patent 203 - centerfire from a Pottet's French patent, broken by Eley in 1865 - (introduction of center-fire concept)
1862 - Needham patent 1544, rotating single-bolt snap-action side-lever
1863, 01 May - J. Purdey patent no. 1104 - "double bite" under action bolt (see below re Scott Spindle)
J.Purdey patent no. 424 - retractable firing pins.
1863, 10 Sep - Greener patent 2231 - pinfire snap underlever - see 1873
Needham side-lever
1865 - Eley breaks Pottet’s French patent on centerfire shells.
1865, 25 Oct - Scott patent 2752 - spindle. (top lever)(purdey-scott incest for 14 years)
1865 - Needham patent xxxx - safety, firing pins and hammers to half cock
1865 - Whitworth "fluid compressed steel" patent
1866 - Webley patent 3022 - snap action underlever
1866 - Pape patent xxxxx - choke tubes
1866 - Hodges patent xxxx - action
1866, March - Center-fire primer cap shotgun shell design by American Berdan
1866, Oct 13 - Center-fire primer cap shotgun shell design by Edward Mounier Boxer.
1867, 05 Nov - Pape patent 70463 - wing thumb lever w/single bite
1867, 09 Feb - Stanton patent 367 - rebounding hammers
1868, 20 Jan - Parson's Patent 201 - chopper lump (Damascus) barrels
1869, 30 Dec - Stanton patent 3774 - rebounding hammer modification
1870 - Lang patent xxxxx- top lever sliding bolt action
1870 - Thomas Patent top lever "double grip" bolting system
1871 - T. Murcott hammerless system
1872, 12 Feb: H Walker patent 455- top-lever barrel bolting and safety for drop-down actions
1872 - Anson patent 3791 - fore-end fasteners
1873 - Deeley & Edge patent 1422 - fore-end fastener
1873, 05 Apr - WM Scott patent 1268 - retractable firing pins
1873 - Scott patent 615 - "key" fore-end fastener
1873 - Greener cross-bolt treble wedge fast locking system
1874 - Needham patent xxxx - separate barrel ejector system (Needham later bought by Greener)
1874, 12 Jun - WM Scott - “Quadruple Grip” action
1874, 04 Dec - Henry rifling patent extended for 4 years to 29 Nov 1978.
1875, 11 May - Anson & Deeley patent 1152 and/or 1756 - Boxlock hammerless action.
1875, 25 May - WM Scott patent 1902 - Triplex top lever grip.
1875 - "Not for ball" added to proof marks based on the Greener choke boring invention. NOTE: If a shotgun were not choked after 1875, it would not have the “Not for Ball” markings - many, possibly most shotguns were NOT choked until the 1880’s.
1875, 15 Sep - Scott patent 3223 - crystal cocking indicator (back action)
1875, 15 May - Scott patent 1902 - top extension
1876 - Thomas Woodword patent 651 - hammerless push-forward under-lever snap action.
1876 - Anson's patent No.4513. Safety aka "Dickie Bird Safety."
1876 - Scott patent 615 - fore-end lever catch
1878, 23 Feb - W.C. Scott & sons patent 761 - aka Triplex Action, coil spring back action hammerless lock; incorporates the Crystal Cocking Indicator.
1878 - Mills patent 4980 - 3rd bite
1878 - Perks cocking rod patent 1968 - over-center ejector patent (better known as Southgate or Holland system)
1879 - Ellis & Scott action, patent No 2816
1879 - Needham & Hinton patent 706 - intercepting sears on back action (bought by Scott)
1879 - Whitworth fluid compressed steel patent extended for 5 years
1880, 16 Nov - Beesley patent 31 - Sidelock hammerless action marketed by Purdey
1882, 8 Feb - Scott patent 617 - gas check
1882 - Pat 4089 - Anson intercepter sear patent (see Scott)
1883, 11 Apr - Anson & Deeley patent, Boxlock hammerless improvement
1884, 3 Nov - Deeley patent 14526 - ejector
1886, 13 Dec - Deeley patent 4289 - ejector system
1886 - Perkes patent 10679 - ejector
1887 - "Not for Ball" dropped; "Choke" added to London proof mark
1889 - Southgate patent 12314 - Beesley ejector London and intercepter sear (see Perkes)
1889 - A&D "boxlock" patent extended?
1893 - Southgate patent 8239 - ejector trip (Holland & Holland)(see Perkes)
1896 - "Nitro Proof" and "1 1/4 oz Max" added to London proof mark
1904 - "NP" topped by arm and sword symbol - (definitive nitro proof) added to London proof mark

According to Donald Dallas in his "The British Sporting Gun and Rifle", both Purdey and Scott could license the combined patents: "Purdeys quickly realised the superiority of the Scott top lever allied to their bolt and made a reciprocal licensing agreement with Scotts; Purdey could use the Scott lever in conjunction with their bolt and Scotts could use the Purdey bolt along with their lever. In addition Purdeys could license the dual patent to the London gunmakers and Scotts to Birmingham and the regions. Such licences were not cheap, Purdey charged the London gunmakers $2 per gun for the right to use the Purdey bolt and Scott top lever. Provided patent fees are paid, a patent can run its full course of fourteen years. The Purdey archives show virtually every single London gunmaker being licensed to use the bolt, and considering the £2 royalty fee per gun, a not inconsiderable sum in the 1860s, Purdeys must have netted a small fortune until the patent expired in 1877. No doubt Scotts accrued the same benefits." So maybe not out of the realm of possibility for the PUN to refer to the dual Purdey/Scott patent, as licensed by Scott.

Sorry to lift a whole paragraph from Mr. Dallas, but he explained more succinctly than I could have.

Matt, reviewing this, now suspect that you are right about the top lever patent. Here is an advert for Reilly 20474 - with both Purdey and Scott patent numbers mentioned - unfortunately no numbers pictured:
https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.c...++6009+&refno=++183988&saletype=

THE STOCK, ACTION AND FORE-END ONLY OF AN E.M. REILLY 12-BORE TOPLEVER HAMMERGUN, serial no. 20474, circa 1870, originally black powder proofed, action flats stamped with patent use numbers for Purdey double bite, use no. 1101 and Scott spindle, use no. 1081, elegant toplever, fore-end with grip-catch release lever

(20474 would date to 1876 not 1870).

Gene,

With the original 1857 serial number of 10,448 is it possible it was built as a muzzle loader?

Although it seems unlikely to us these days, given the cost of the considerable gunsmithing involved, quite a few muzzleloaders were converted either to pinfire or direct to centrefire.

Para, that was my original thinking. See the Reilly line for the latest received from Holt's which pretty well established it was a pinfire, appropriate text below:

I asked Holt's as time permits and for academic purposes only to try to determine where both these serial numbers are found. Holt's send the response photos below. Clearly this was an early pin-fire, 10448 being found on the water table/action flats and on the barrels. 20320 is found on the tang behind the trigger guard, no doubt added when it was converted to Center-fire. 20320 would date to 1876. 10448 would date to late 1857 only 10 numbers earlier than mine. The name/address on the rib was also changed when it was converted.


What I was trying to see is whether it had the Berringer rising bite on the action flats. . .can't see from the photo above but what little you can see of the lump seems to resemble the layout of 10456 here: Of course, it's possible elements of the action including the lumps were changed out when the gun was converted to top lever.
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...rd=1&Number=662796&what=showflat

A couple of posters wanted to see the lumps and barrel flats of 10456 (number December 1857) pictured above. Holts had kindly provided them.