doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Proofmark puzzle

Does the rifle regulate with BP Express or Nitro Express ammo?
Mike

I would say these stamps are truly coupled as the Belgians like the Germans were most methodical in their procedures and application. The Calibrator applied the stamps, as well as cobbled together the proof load or approved the proof cartridge, and this was his job. He/she was a very proud lot & took their task quite seriously. Although the font is indeed different, I again say the Calibrator applied the encircled marks in one effort & then the Inspector applied his mark.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

So to answer your Powder type question, the tubes in a singular state, experienced proof w/ a Blackpowder load prescribed by the Calibrator and then when joined the tubeset experienced Semi-Smokeless proof as prescribed by the Calibrator, who early on required 0.6mm windage between the difference of the diameter of the projectile and the diameter of the tube.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

But the Question that begs, is what exactly does the letters >>PV<< under a Rampant Lion denote. When 1st pressed into service, the stamp meant Voluntary Proof of Semi-Smokeless for a Military Callibre. Therefore, and I acknowledge of French, could it stand for Proof Voluntary / Volunteer ???


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ah, I finally found it: >>Poudre Vive<<, an early moniker for Semi-Smokeless Nitro Powders. So yes, still in the language of French.

With the advent of the optional >>Poudre Vive<<, then is is most likely that such a platform experienced up to 5 Proof Efforts, with the last couple being Optional.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Not semi-smokeless Raimey
At the beginning of the optional PV in 1891 the specific bulk smokeless with which the gun was proved was specified; "E.C.", "Schultze", and later Mullerite, "New Schultze" and "E.C. No. 2 & 3"
Smokeless “Schultze” was offered by Von Lengerke & Detmold in the U.S. in 1887
The American “E.C.” & “Schultze” Powder Company was established in Oakland, New Jersey by Capt. Money in 1890.



I've seen guns later than 1898 still indicating the powder

"E.C. No. 3" with the stylized lion
“New E.C. (Improved) No. 3” was introduced in U.S. in 1904; likely earlier in Europe and England



Mullerite proved

I still contend the phrase >>Semi-Smokeless<< at its core applies as it revolved around >>Wood Powder<< and was indeed the Sch & EC you note. The proof was purely optional & had to be submitted in writing by the maker.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Maybe by the hard-headed Germans but not by the Belgians nor the clueless Americans

American Wood Powder was an improved version of Dittmer powder, the first “Nitro” (semi-smokeless [according to the British] nitrated wood cellulose) powder produced in the U.S. (not likely ever offered in Europe to compete with "Schultze") and was introduced about 1883. It was marketed by Von Lengerke & Detmold. It was replaced by King’s Powder Co., Cincinnati “King’s Smokeless” in 1895.

Scientific American Supplement, October 4, 1890 “Smokeless Powder”
https://books.google.com/books?id=6d45AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA12308
Wetterven, Walsrode, Maxim, Nobel, and Vieille all mentioned

1893
S.S. (Sporting Shotgun) didn't last long as it developed high pressures with small gauge shells

You penned it Exactly.


The only reason the Belgians were updating their proof rules & powders was an attempt to keep in pace w/ the Germans as the Belgians were supplying ALL the Rough Bored Tubes for the German platforms. The Germans also had a Semi-Smokeless Voluntary Proof and if the Belgians adopted the same process and powder, how could it not be Semi-Smokless? It wasn't till 1911/1912 for the Germans to migrate to a True Nitro stamp and the Belgians may have gotten wind and started their efforts in 1910???


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Yet another interesting Belgian Decree of November 18th, 1903 established the use of the >>Unique<< >>standardized smokeless powder<< as the Official Smokeless Powder, instead of the 25 powder variations, and was deemed the 4th Proof as an Optional Proof and the Calibrator applied the stamp of the Rampant Lion over PV(>>Poudre Vive<<). Then if a maker wanted a specific proof from the lot of 25 approved and available powders, the platform was subjected to a 5th Proof Effort, purely optional or voluntary of course.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse