doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Drilling proof mark help please

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I am trying to confirm the rifle chamber in a pre-war German drilling recently acquired at auction and listed as 9.3x72R. The barrel is marked “8.7 mm 72” in the picture. I have made a chamber cast and the the bore diameter is measuring 9.29mm vs the bullet at 9.32mm. I want to confirm the shells are correct and don’t want to assume (I’m in no hurry to try it). Thanks for any input.

If your chamber cast matches the 9.3x72R, you should be good to go. I believe (but am happy to be corrected) the chamber markings also state that. To my limited experience, the original bullet design was 'stepped' with the nose being slightly smaller in diameter as well as being a 'soft' alloy so the measurements you give shouldn't present a problem. Further, cast bullets of the proper weight would be fine as well.

Thanks for your reply, Hoot4570. Here’s a couple more pictures I took (I’m still learning how to post them)

The top of the shotgun barrels is engraved “Carl Lobbenberg” and “Altona”

I assume Carl was either the maker or the retailer but I wasn’t able to find much information about him aside from references to straight edge razors w his name. I assume Altona is the town in Germany where it was either sold or made?

Also, I am curious about the date of manufacture- any chance the numbers stamped on the side of the rifle bbl in the picture are a date code? “1/24” could that be for January 1924? Below that is “42”, could that be for 1942?

Thank you all for any additional information!

The Drilling of which you are a custodian passed thru the Suhl Proof Facility in January 1924, almost 102 years ago, and was 42 for that month under the name of Emil Eckoldt . It was a period when either Suhl was using a proof ledger, or Suhl was sending their wares to the Zella - Mehlis Proof Facilty because their was a renovation @ the Suhl Proof Facility. It was proofed w/ a 15 Copper Jacketed Bullet. Just about any lead Cast Bullet for 9,3X72R will fit the bill.

Carl Lobbenberg was just the firearms merchant where he had a client & placed an order w/ Emil Eckoldt.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

From a quick search of Büchsenmacher Karl Lobbenberg in Altona / Elbe info gives that Karl Lobbenberg was @ Reichenstr. 17 in Atlona/Elbe. He must have hung out his shingle in the early 1920s???

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

From what I have read, the renovation of the Suhl Proof Facility was in 1921, so the Suhl Proof Facility used a ledger number for about 6 months commencing in September, 1923. So why start applying date codes in September 1923 or was there a rules change then to comply with the New Proof Commission / Conference, which was delayed by the 1st Major Disagreement in Europe.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thank you, Raimey! That is most helpful!

Where did you get the connection to Emil Eckoldt? Was that from another reference associated w these proof marks?

Interesting stuff about the Suhl proof facility.

One question about the acceptable bullets, you mentioned ‘just about any lead cast bullet for 9.3x72r” but since it was proofed with a copper jacketed bullet, I assume that would also still be fine today? I see they are available and I’d consider taking it out deer hunting for a late season doe if that’s the case.

Thank you again for such thorough information!

Austin

By 1924, the 9,3X72R was standardized and I am not sure why the dimensions are what they are. Hopefully Ford will be by in a minute.



Emil Eckoldt was the only maker that used a Heart as a Trademark. Look for his trademark or initials elsewhere like on the Standing Breech.....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

AMtrico,
Back to your original question of why the difference between the 8.7x 72 and the 9.3x72. The 8.7 was the proof house's measurement of the bore (not bullet or groove) diameter and the 72 (in mm) was the length of the longest cartridge case it would accept. The 9.3x72R is the name of the cartridge the rifle barrel is chambered for. There were 4 different 9.3x72Rs that could have the 8.7x 72 proof marks, 3 of which were similar and the other (9.3x72R Sauer and Sohn) was an entirely different cartridge, more similar to the 9.3x74R. The (9.3x72R E [English form] and 9.3x72R D [ German form] and 9.3 x72 N [ normalizert/ standardized]) other three were all very similar, differing in minor case shape and rim thickness. The 9.3x72R N was designed to allow chambering new rifles and rechambering older rifles to safely fire the standardized cartridge. The older rifles often had barrels with differing groove diameters (I have seen them from .352" to .368") and the Express bullet Hoot described was designed for the standardized cartridge, to be safe in any of them. Because of this and the standardized cartridge was loaded to the same pressure as the older cartridges; the rechambered rifles did not have to be submitted for reproof. Every once in a while, we find a rifle still chambered for one of the older forms of the cartridge, but other than this we can't tell what the original chambering was for any of the early ones. As Raimey mentioned, cast bullets do well in any of them. We find a lot of them with groove diameters of .357"-.359" and 35 caliber rifle bullets or 38 caliber pistol bullets can be used in them. The 9.3 bullets intended for such cartridges as 9.3x62/9.3x64/ or 9.3x74R should not be used, but some bullet makers produce a "softer" bullet especially for 9.3x72Rs that can be used if the diameters match and if you can find them the Express type of bullet is always useable.
Mike

Mike and Raimey,
Your comments are excellent. Thanks for posting.

Now the typical bullet weight is around 193 grains or 12.5 grammes. so what was the purpose or use of a 15 grammes or 231.5 grains Copper Jacketed Bullet?

To be honest, even with its widespread use, I just not an a fan of the 9,3X72R. I guess I should load Blackpowder or Equivalent & that just may make it palatable¿¿¿

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

After starring @ it a while, I believe the weight is 13 grammes, which is typical.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The standard bullet weight now in factory made 9.3x72R Norm. ammo is 193 grains. I have one rifle proofed with a 12-gram bullet and another from the same maker proofed with a 13-gram bullet. We are lucky to have any factory ammo available now but before the war it was available with various weight and types of bullets. The caliber is legal now in Germany only for Roe Deer, but at one time there was ammo that would meet the current energy requirements for "Hochwild" (Red Deer, Boar, etc.)
Mike

Raimey - You are correct, it is “13”
Thank you Raimey & Mike for your excellent insights and knowledge. I find it fascinating learning more about vintage firearms!

As for bullet choices, Ammo Seek lists Sellier & Bellot 193 grain bullets as the only option I’m finding. I’m assuming these would be fine?

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/sel...2ra-p-112799.aspx?trafficsource=AmmoSeek

As for Emil Eckoldt marks, I don’t see any more hearts (that was a great catch, Raimey!) but I did notice what might be a “E K” in a circle on the water table - see below. Or maybe that’s for something else?

>>ECKO<<, sometimes encircled, is his trademark, although that might be the effort of Hugo Eckoldt. Get a closeup of that mark & closely check the standing breech & floor plate.

But that sure looks like the trademark.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Here’s a close up

C.A. Funk or Kerner & Funk.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=375187



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

AMtrico,
The currently available S&B ammo is fine to use, but older S&B ammo I have shows a little less velocity than other makes. This makes little, if any difference. The older cases (like mine) are Berdan primed, but those on the market are boxer primed and perfectly useable with American primers. You should save all the cases and handload them.
Mike