doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Vierordt & Cie Drilling in 9,3X82R

A fella in St. Petersburg, Russia contacted me about some info on this Burgsmuller retailed Vierordt & Cie Drilling chambered in 9,3X82R w/ a 12.7 gramme projectile. You just don't see these that often. Made & proved in Zella - Mehlis in May 1913.










Appears it was 1st proofed for Shot or misstamped???





Nr. 25 - Kaliber 9,3X82, mit Rand, mit Bleigeschoß und Schwarzpulver geladen. Diese Patrone wurde früher für Büchsflinten,
Doppelbüchsen und Drillinge gewünscht. Wir führen sie nur der Vollständigkeit wegen mit auf.



DRs, but similar in nature.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I do wonder what the reinforcement might be around the 9.3X83R striker might be?



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

It looks like Vierordt & Compagnie shuttered its door in 1920 & then Krieghoff acquired them in 1922?



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
The early 9.3 ammo was primed with the M71 6.45mm (.254") primers and we often see a circle around the firing pin that looks like the "reinforcement" you observed, caused by corrosive gas leakage around the large primers. Early 8.15x46Rs also used these primers and often show the same circle, as do rifles chambered for 11.15x60 R or other cartridges based on that case.
Mike

Great Info there Ford. I guess I have not see enough 9.3X82R strikers nor 8,15X 46.5R. So the the powder residue actually ate into the standing breech/frame. Does the corrosion actually affect performance?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Nr. 25 - Kaliber 9,3X82, mit Rand, mit Bleigeschoß und Schwarzpulver geladen. Diese Patrone wurde früher für Büchsflinten,
Doppelbüchsen und Drillinge gewünscht. Wir führen sie nur der Vollständigkeit wegen mit auf.

So I guess igniting the ole Schwarzpulver(Blackpowder) added to the mix also?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

What do you strive to express?

(yes, the choice of verb is a pun too)

What I was striving to express was what stress would the coupled Mercury Primer with the Black Powder Express add to the Test of the steel standing breech?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The 9.3x82r is an interesting cartridge. I have a Max Knoll double rifle nitro proofed in 1925 that is 9.3x82R. Originally this was a black powder cartridge. It is 3 1/4" long. Cases are somewhat hard to find. Bertram said they were running some cases in the near future.

Join the Party & Pleasure us w/ some Pics....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Here's some interesting composed text on Vierordt and Compagnie:
(Do note the neat cartridges)



>>My notes on Vierordt

The company Vierordt & Cie of Kehl-Strassburg is believed to have operated from the late 19th century and went out of business in early WW1, by 1915. This firm produced firearms and also parts for motor bicycles.

The business was associated with Gustav Kersten, who was an arms manufacturer of Kehl-Strassburg and known to have invented and patented (D.R.G.M) several rifle actions from 1899, including:

c1900 they received DRGM #123783 for a rifle action.

A double rifle by Vierordt on G. Kersten’s “Drehblockverschluss” patent # 141334 of 1902, a peculiar action with the block dropping down for about ¼" to unlock it from the barrel extensions, then rolling back to expose the chambers.

A breech action with double Greener cross bolt generally called the ‘Kersten’ bolt action or ‘Strassburg’ action, patent # 252511 c1905. He called this type “Verschluß Modell I” (= Action Model I) and “Marke Luchs” (= “Type Lynx”). This rifle won a gold medal at the “Internationale Jagdausstellung” (Hunters Exhibition) Vienna 1907.

Around early 1900’s Kersten was an arms manufacturer for the German army and thus he was not allowed to deposit a private patent nor to manufacture weapons for his own retail. This is why he joined Vierordt. However, in 1910, they had a dispute which became a public campaign in the press at the time. Kersten then separated from Vierordt by transferring the rights of his invention to his son named Curt. Cf. 1907 vs 1910 Vierordt “Marke-Luchs” ad - the “Kersten” name was removed by 1910.

The Vierordt & Cie had ammunition produced for it by DWM (and perhaps others). At least one of the unique cartridges produced for this company were even patented. Known cartridges for these rifles are:

Patrone 100 :10.75x65R Vierordt (MB163)
Patrone 101 : 9.3x74R Mauser (M60)
Patrone 102 : 8x62R Vierordt (D.R.G.M. 274380) (EXP20)
Patrone 103 : 8x65R Vierordt (EXP21)<<

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.o...e-made-from-vierordt-case-nr-103/54338/6

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

There's a Great Story of this >>Real Life Soap-Opera<<, just have to get @ the Facts:

https://germanhuntingguns.com/archives/kersten-gustav/


Vierordt & Compagnie was the >>Alleinige Lieferanten<< or Sole Outlet; that is until things went South.


https://germanhuntingguns.com/archives/kersten-gustav/

12,7 Copper Jacketed Bullet - Would be neat to view a Dreiling in one of the odd Vierordt Chamberings(Proprietary???)



Breech end looks like a Cat's Face.


Elite on the aft Suhler Claw Mount

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I have not seen rings around the firing pins that caused problems with performance, they are ugly. Lead salts in corrosive priming compounds and black powder residue caused the corrosion (barrels were routinely cleaned but actions were not often stripped and cleaned). Mercury in priming compounds did not cause corrosion of the steel, but were fatal to brass cartridge cases, causing them to become brittle after a while.
Mike

Thanks Ford. Any other corrosion causers that we might have missed??


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Axle E.'s 2 cents:

>>Oh Raimey! To construct a relation between Dreyse and Stendebach only on the distant outward similarity of a gun is ridiculous! This similarity starts and ends with the detail of barrels swinging out to the side, every other function is different! N.v.Dreyses gun had an eccentrical cam activated by an underlever. It slid the barrels first forward and then out to the side. Insofar it is more a relative of the Gastinne-Teschner-Collath slide and tilt actions than of the much later Stendebach side-swinging action. At the Dreyse, Soemmerda factory these side-swinging needlefires were soon superseded by Franz v.Dreyse's "improved" needlefires that worked on the basic Gastinne slide and tilt principle. The Stendebach guns were undoubtedly made by the Suhl guntrade. And:there was no side-swinging design by Behr, though both competed with similar up-down breaking designs.
This gun is made to Friedrich Stendebach's last gun action patent, DRP # 229533 of 1907. If you are looking for an "older predecessor" of this action, you have to go back to George Jeffries of Norwich British patent # 22 of 1862. Both the Jeffries' and the Stendebach actions are effectively break-open actions turned sideways. On both actions the barrels are held to the breechface by the dovetail-shaped underlug going sideways into a corresponding cut in the action bar. In plan this lug is curved on the Stendebach, wedge-shaped on the Jeffries. (BTW, I am well aware of the difference between Jeffries and Jeffery). To allow the barrels to move away from the breechface both actions have their hinges set over to the left, beyond the centerline of the left barrel. The purpose of both inventors was to get away from the up-down stresses that try to "break open" a conventional gun.
The Behr vs. Stendebach patent dispute was about other designs, Behr's DRP 154950 of 1904 being for a cattlekiller that showed some similarities to both Behr's and Stendebach's designs for unconventional break-open rifles.
Apparently Friedrich Stendebach's action designs, though very strong, were not very successful, reflected by the rarity of Stendebach patent guns and the confusing and muddled history of his many companies. "Friedrich Stendebach, Beiersgrund 3, Suhl" Gun and bullet factory, is mentioned from 1899 on, trademark "STENDA". By 1906 he also had a bullet factory in Leipzig-Gohlis. At the start of WW1 a "Stendebach & Co." existed too, making guns to Stendebach's and Kersten's designs. The "& Co" here was no other than Gustav Kersten, retired from the army. Remember, Franz Jaeger had refused to make guns to his uncle's designs, preferring his own. This Stendebach & Co. went into receivership in 1916, the receiver being Gustav Loesche, Wilhelmstr. 13, Magdeburg, founded 1873 by father Alfred Loesche, "Hofbüchsenmacher" = gunmaker to some court since 1911, mostly a dealer in guns and ammo as he advertized a "gunsmith shop inhouse". The business relations Loesche-Stendebach were intensive before and after the failing of "Stendebach & Co."
Apparently Stendebach then teamed up with the former "maker" of Kersten guns, as there was a "Vierordt, Stendebach & Cie. GmbH" with branches in Frankfurt a.Main, Säckingen, Gmünden a.M., Suhl and finally Augsburg. To addto the confusion, there was also a STENDA-Werke GmbH,Amtmannsweg 37, Suhl, owner Max Stendebach, in the 1920s. Augsburg seems to have been the last station of Friedrich Stendebach. Here he offered in the 1930s "original Stendebach guns", Mauser actioned rifles and cartridges and bullets of his own design. For his Mauser rifles he had his own proprietary cartridge, the forgotten 8x71 Stendebach Ideal M30 with his own "Ideal Universal" bullet, a complicated softnose with a hard and a soft lead core, separated by a steel ball. Stendebach's most successful design, in fact the only one still remembered, was his Stendebach Ideal shotgun slug.<<


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...ords=Vierordt&Search=true#Post287925


https://germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-stendebach-carl-friedrich-philip/#:~:text=Apparently%20Stendebach%20then%20teamed%20up,with%20branches%20in%20Frankfurt%20a%2FMain

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Does NOT look like circular corrosion to me. Too precise and sharp. Rather, like a bushed firing pin hole.

So, do we need more fotos for analysis?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Some nice nuggets of info here:


>>The rifle was apparently originally proofed pre-WW1for the proprietary 8x62R Vierordt cartridge by the Suhl proofhouse. In 1941 it was rechambered (?)to 8x65R Brenneke and proofed again by the Czech Prag proofhouse. (1938 to 1945 Weipert in the Sudetenland was annexed by Grossdeutschland and used German proofmarks). So the rifle was in Bohemia at the start of WW2.
Gustav Kersten invented his double Greener crossbolt lockup, better known as "Kersten - Verschluss" , in 1899 and merely protected it by DRGM # 123283. This protection ended 1905. Kersten was a military armorer and stationed in then German Strassburg (German to 1681, French til 1870, German to 1918, French again since) on the west bank of the Rhine. As a Prussian government official Kersten was not allowed to run a business of his own openly. So he crossed the river to Kehl in the state of Baden, on the east bank opposite Strassburg, and formed an unofficial partnership with the gunshop Vierordt & Co. As Vierordt was no real gunmaker, they had their guns made by the Suhl guntrade. Their Suhl branch was handled by Christoph Sturm first, from 1909 to 1920 by Friedrich Stendebach. In 1922 the Suhl shop was sold to Krieghoff. Vierordt had a branch in Bad Kissingen, Bavaria too, a posh spa at the time. Vierordt marketed the various Kersten designed guns under their trademark Luchs = lynx as Luchs I to Luchs IV. This dr is a Luchs I, te classic "Kersten - Verschluss".
At first Kersten supervised the production of all Vierordt "Luchs" guns, but by 1910 the partership had broken up and ended in quarrels. At that time Vierordt & Co. was owned by a Carl Rehfus, a Kehl hat factory owner. Rehfus is better known under his pen name "Oberländer" as a then popular author on hunting, dog breeding and handling. He is credited with creating and initial breeding of the German Wirehaired Pointer. You can still buy dog leashes and collars "Modell Oberländer". Soon after F.Stendebach apparently took over Vierordt & Co. Now the history gets very muddy, as usual with the many Stendebach / Stenda companies in Suhl, Frankfurt a.M., Augsburg, Säckingen and Leipzig.<<


https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/possible-next-project.203398/page-2#:~:text=This%20dr%20is%20a%20Luchs,up%20and%20ended%20in%20quarrels.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Yeah, it is sort of difficult to keep your hand on straight as to who was crossing swords w/ whom in the Vierordt & Compagnie saga/soap-opera. Luchsgewehrfabrik was the name of the weapons factory in Suhl, although the subject drilling was completed & passed thru the Zella-Mehlis Proof Facility. Christoph Sturm, who hung out his Gunmaking Shingle in 1849, was said to have been doing the heavy lifting for Vierordt & Compagnie and interesting enough in 1913 that both were @ the same address @ Judithstraße 3(Judithstraße 5 since 1910). Proprietors @ the time were Heinrich & Maria/Marie till 1916 when all the Patriarchs passed, partnership of Paul and Heinrich was dissolved & widow Maria continued the business with Businessman Paul Sturm. It moved to Bad Kissingen and the name was struck from the Suhl Register. It is stated that Christoph Sturm, and I assume the concern, developed the subject dreiling and what I call the >>Vierordt Drilling<< but possibly it should be referred to as the Luchs-Drilling, per Christoph Sturm who developed it and looks to have manufactured it or sourced gestecks, parts kits, and had the platforms cobbled together as Best he could.

Anyway, @ time the managing director of the Vierordt & Compagnie Concern was Friedrich Stendebach and sometime 1909 there was the concern Vierordt, Stendebach & Cie.

So we have Gustav Kersten, Friedrich Stendebach, Christoph Sturm and the Vierordt & Compagnie..... I will dig a bit more and get all this sorted.



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

This is interesting! I have a Vierordt double rifle on the Kersten action. I can't remember what the original chambering was but it's been re-cut for basically the 8 X 65R Brenneke...and not very well done but my gunsmith was able to clean it up and it's fine now. I was able to find a load that regulated. It is a .318 groove diameter.

In the thread you 1st mentioned a T&S in 9,3 X 75R Nimrod; then when you picked up the Vierordt you noted the chamber was 8 X 65R Brenneke?



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The following Vierordt & Compagnie „MARKE LUCHS“ Dreiling was out of the Tom Dever's Collection, so I wonder if he dispersed his collection or expired¿¿ He was a GGCA Past President. It is chambered in 16-70 X 8X57IR in 70 cm tubes wearing a Proof Date of January 1925.






Unique Cartridge Trap

I guess what is needed to be done is define / distinguish the platform of the Vierordt & Compagnie „Marke Luchs” Dreiling or determine if there were multiple Platforms¿

The Subject Dreiling has frame extension whereas the above Marke Luchs Dreiling has barrel extensions.

Then the question begs as to how Burgsmuller got in the mix¿ Did he make a Lot Purchase during a period of Vierordt & Compagnie turmoil¿

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

And then there's the Rolling Block Version.....


>>VIERORDT & CIE. KEHL - STRASSBURG
AN UNUSUAL AND SCARCE 9.3x74R / 16-BORE 'MARKE LUCHS' ROLLING-BLOCK COMBINATION GUN / RIFLE, serial no. 16103,
circa 1910, 27 1/2in. (70cm) nitro barrels (some dents and rivels), broad engine-turned matt rib, bead fore-sight, open rear sight with one folding leaf, the breech end engraved 'VIERORDT & CIE. KEHL - STRASSBURG.', the tubes engraved 'MARKE LUCHS', 2 1/2in. shot chamber, bored approx. full choke, rolling-block action incorporating Gustav Kerstens patent no. 141334 of June 4th 1903, engraved to the rear of the breech block 'GUSTAV KERSTENS VERSCHLUSS D.R. PAT. NO. 141334.', manual side safety, push-forward underlever, front set trigger, border and Germanic scroll engraving, 13 3/4in. pistolgrip stock (cracked with pins and insert repairs at hand) with cheekpiece, pistolgrip-cap, sling swivels, sprung bullet compartment and steel buttplate, permanently attached fore-end with Deeley & Edge release catch, weight 8lb. 4oz.<<


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Carcano,
While it still does not look like a bushed firing pin (to me), which would likely be better fit, I can concede that it is possible. Conversion of "hound's tooth" strikers to gas tight bushed firing pins was a common cause of having to install bushings. I admit I haven't seen everything, but I think it would be difficult to fit a hound's tooth striker into a drilling for the rifle barrel, as opposed to the rifle barrel of a BF. Since neither of us has first-hand knowledge of what happened, your guess is as good as mine.
Mike

That was my first post in this thread. I had a Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling in 9.3 X 75R Nimrod but sold it to my gunsmith. I picked up the Vierordt 2 or 3 years ago and yes, it's been re-chambered to 8 X 65R Brenneke.

Could you pleasure us with some fotos of the proofmarks?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

If I could post on this board and, if I had any pictures I would be more than happy to. I have a couple pictures to take as soon as another project is finished and I'll try to take some of the proofs. I'm not very confident as my photography skills are abysmal.

Just forward any & all images to me & I will gladly post them.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse