doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Vierordt & Cie Drilling in 9,3X82R

Join the Party & Pleasure us w/ some Pics....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Here's some interesting composed text on Vierordt and Compagnie:
(Do note the neat cartridges)



>>My notes on Vierordt

The company Vierordt & Cie of Kehl-Strassburg is believed to have operated from the late 19th century and went out of business in early WW1, by 1915. This firm produced firearms and also parts for motor bicycles.

The business was associated with Gustav Kersten, who was an arms manufacturer of Kehl-Strassburg and known to have invented and patented (D.R.G.M) several rifle actions from 1899, including:

c1900 they received DRGM #123783 for a rifle action.

A double rifle by Vierordt on G. Kersten’s “Drehblockverschluss” patent # 141334 of 1902, a peculiar action with the block dropping down for about ¼" to unlock it from the barrel extensions, then rolling back to expose the chambers.

A breech action with double Greener cross bolt generally called the ‘Kersten’ bolt action or ‘Strassburg’ action, patent # 252511 c1905. He called this type “Verschluß Modell I” (= Action Model I) and “Marke Luchs” (= “Type Lynx”). This rifle won a gold medal at the “Internationale Jagdausstellung” (Hunters Exhibition) Vienna 1907.

Around early 1900’s Kersten was an arms manufacturer for the German army and thus he was not allowed to deposit a private patent nor to manufacture weapons for his own retail. This is why he joined Vierordt. However, in 1910, they had a dispute which became a public campaign in the press at the time. Kersten then separated from Vierordt by transferring the rights of his invention to his son named Curt. Cf. 1907 vs 1910 Vierordt “Marke-Luchs” ad - the “Kersten” name was removed by 1910.

The Vierordt & Cie had ammunition produced for it by DWM (and perhaps others). At least one of the unique cartridges produced for this company were even patented. Known cartridges for these rifles are:

Patrone 100 :10.75x65R Vierordt (MB163)
Patrone 101 : 9.3x74R Mauser (M60)
Patrone 102 : 8x62R Vierordt (D.R.G.M. 274380) (EXP20)
Patrone 103 : 8x65R Vierordt (EXP21)<<

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.o...e-made-from-vierordt-case-nr-103/54338/6

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

There's a Great Story of this >>Real Life Soap-Opera<<, just have to get @ the Facts:

https://germanhuntingguns.com/archives/kersten-gustav/


Vierordt & Compagnie was the >>Alleinige Lieferanten<< or Sole Outlet; that is until things went South.


https://germanhuntingguns.com/archives/kersten-gustav/

12,7 Copper Jacketed Bullet - Would be neat to view a Dreiling in one of the odd Vierordt Chamberings(Proprietary???)



Breech end looks like a Cat's Face.


Elite on the aft Suhler Claw Mount

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I have not seen rings around the firing pins that caused problems with performance, they are ugly. Lead salts in corrosive priming compounds and black powder residue caused the corrosion (barrels were routinely cleaned but actions were not often stripped and cleaned). Mercury in priming compounds did not cause corrosion of the steel, but were fatal to brass cartridge cases, causing them to become brittle after a while.
Mike

Thanks Ford. Any other corrosion causers that we might have missed??


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Axle E.'s 2 cents:

>>Oh Raimey! To construct a relation between Dreyse and Stendebach only on the distant outward similarity of a gun is ridiculous! This similarity starts and ends with the detail of barrels swinging out to the side, every other function is different! N.v.Dreyses gun had an eccentrical cam activated by an underlever. It slid the barrels first forward and then out to the side. Insofar it is more a relative of the Gastinne-Teschner-Collath slide and tilt actions than of the much later Stendebach side-swinging action. At the Dreyse, Soemmerda factory these side-swinging needlefires were soon superseded by Franz v.Dreyse's "improved" needlefires that worked on the basic Gastinne slide and tilt principle. The Stendebach guns were undoubtedly made by the Suhl guntrade. And:there was no side-swinging design by Behr, though both competed with similar up-down breaking designs.
This gun is made to Friedrich Stendebach's last gun action patent, DRP # 229533 of 1907. If you are looking for an "older predecessor" of this action, you have to go back to George Jeffries of Norwich British patent # 22 of 1862. Both the Jeffries' and the Stendebach actions are effectively break-open actions turned sideways. On both actions the barrels are held to the breechface by the dovetail-shaped underlug going sideways into a corresponding cut in the action bar. In plan this lug is curved on the Stendebach, wedge-shaped on the Jeffries. (BTW, I am well aware of the difference between Jeffries and Jeffery). To allow the barrels to move away from the breechface both actions have their hinges set over to the left, beyond the centerline of the left barrel. The purpose of both inventors was to get away from the up-down stresses that try to "break open" a conventional gun.
The Behr vs. Stendebach patent dispute was about other designs, Behr's DRP 154950 of 1904 being for a cattlekiller that showed some similarities to both Behr's and Stendebach's designs for unconventional break-open rifles.
Apparently Friedrich Stendebach's action designs, though very strong, were not very successful, reflected by the rarity of Stendebach patent guns and the confusing and muddled history of his many companies. "Friedrich Stendebach, Beiersgrund 3, Suhl" Gun and bullet factory, is mentioned from 1899 on, trademark "STENDA". By 1906 he also had a bullet factory in Leipzig-Gohlis. At the start of WW1 a "Stendebach & Co." existed too, making guns to Stendebach's and Kersten's designs. The "& Co" here was no other than Gustav Kersten, retired from the army. Remember, Franz Jaeger had refused to make guns to his uncle's designs, preferring his own. This Stendebach & Co. went into receivership in 1916, the receiver being Gustav Loesche, Wilhelmstr. 13, Magdeburg, founded 1873 by father Alfred Loesche, "Hofbüchsenmacher" = gunmaker to some court since 1911, mostly a dealer in guns and ammo as he advertized a "gunsmith shop inhouse". The business relations Loesche-Stendebach were intensive before and after the failing of "Stendebach & Co."
Apparently Stendebach then teamed up with the former "maker" of Kersten guns, as there was a "Vierordt, Stendebach & Cie. GmbH" with branches in Frankfurt a.Main, Säckingen, Gmünden a.M., Suhl and finally Augsburg. To addto the confusion, there was also a STENDA-Werke GmbH,Amtmannsweg 37, Suhl, owner Max Stendebach, in the 1920s. Augsburg seems to have been the last station of Friedrich Stendebach. Here he offered in the 1930s "original Stendebach guns", Mauser actioned rifles and cartridges and bullets of his own design. For his Mauser rifles he had his own proprietary cartridge, the forgotten 8x71 Stendebach Ideal M30 with his own "Ideal Universal" bullet, a complicated softnose with a hard and a soft lead core, separated by a steel ball. Stendebach's most successful design, in fact the only one still remembered, was his Stendebach Ideal shotgun slug.<<


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...ords=Vierordt&Search=true#Post287925


https://germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-stendebach-carl-friedrich-philip/#:~:text=Apparently%20Stendebach%20then%20teamed%20up,with%20branches%20in%20Frankfurt%20a%2FMain

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Does NOT look like circular corrosion to me. Too precise and sharp. Rather, like a bushed firing pin hole.

So, do we need more fotos for analysis?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Some nice nuggets of info here:


>>The rifle was apparently originally proofed pre-WW1for the proprietary 8x62R Vierordt cartridge by the Suhl proofhouse. In 1941 it was rechambered (?)to 8x65R Brenneke and proofed again by the Czech Prag proofhouse. (1938 to 1945 Weipert in the Sudetenland was annexed by Grossdeutschland and used German proofmarks). So the rifle was in Bohemia at the start of WW2.
Gustav Kersten invented his double Greener crossbolt lockup, better known as "Kersten - Verschluss" , in 1899 and merely protected it by DRGM # 123283. This protection ended 1905. Kersten was a military armorer and stationed in then German Strassburg (German to 1681, French til 1870, German to 1918, French again since) on the west bank of the Rhine. As a Prussian government official Kersten was not allowed to run a business of his own openly. So he crossed the river to Kehl in the state of Baden, on the east bank opposite Strassburg, and formed an unofficial partnership with the gunshop Vierordt & Co. As Vierordt was no real gunmaker, they had their guns made by the Suhl guntrade. Their Suhl branch was handled by Christoph Sturm first, from 1909 to 1920 by Friedrich Stendebach. In 1922 the Suhl shop was sold to Krieghoff. Vierordt had a branch in Bad Kissingen, Bavaria too, a posh spa at the time. Vierordt marketed the various Kersten designed guns under their trademark Luchs = lynx as Luchs I to Luchs IV. This dr is a Luchs I, te classic "Kersten - Verschluss".
At first Kersten supervised the production of all Vierordt "Luchs" guns, but by 1910 the partership had broken up and ended in quarrels. At that time Vierordt & Co. was owned by a Carl Rehfus, a Kehl hat factory owner. Rehfus is better known under his pen name "Oberländer" as a then popular author on hunting, dog breeding and handling. He is credited with creating and initial breeding of the German Wirehaired Pointer. You can still buy dog leashes and collars "Modell Oberländer". Soon after F.Stendebach apparently took over Vierordt & Co. Now the history gets very muddy, as usual with the many Stendebach / Stenda companies in Suhl, Frankfurt a.M., Augsburg, Säckingen and Leipzig.<<


https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/possible-next-project.203398/page-2#:~:text=This%20dr%20is%20a%20Luchs,up%20and%20ended%20in%20quarrels.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse