doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com want to buy a cheap merkel or similar

i want to buy an old and cheap s/s and came across simpsonltd. i see a lot of merkels/ayas and brnos for sale. what should i be wary of when looking for an old merkel. it will be used for rough shooting. ducks/geese/pheasant/grouse in wet/cold/snowy conditions. want english stock and 2 triggers.

will only shoot steel with light loads. can open chokes as needed.

no idea if doing anything to forcing cones should be considered.

any advice or options would be greatly appreciated. also other cheap shops like simpsonltd.

thanks.

There use to be another website that had tonnes of the Post WWII offerings. If indeed shooting steel, I would source one with good steel for the period and quite thick tubes which can be opened up..... After WWII, all the gunmakers were consolidated under the same umbrella to make War reparations for Russian elites & Hunters. So, for the most part, almost all are the same...

Although I have not used steel, but I have been pleased for 20+ years with tubes stamped near the lower rib >>Simson - Special Gewehr Lauf Stahl SP1<<, which @ one time used the 4 Ringe Olympic Style Stamp and at one time, we thought we knew the steel origin, but the origin seems to have been masked and maybe it was just advertising....

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thank you very much Raimey. I used to have a nice 47 e but stupidly sold it in a slump and went to all 20g. Now want something like that back for fun, but limited in finances.

Ill keep looking for something.

Here's a recent thread & use >>DDR<< and/or >>GDR<< in your search engine:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=519154&page=all

I have performed a cursory search, but didn't find for what I was looking.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Keep checking Gunbroker. Lots of them show up. Simson, Sauer, Geco. Most of them made in Suhl.

Thanks again. i will keep looking. Your link helped me understand a little.

One of our Russian Contributors makes a good point & I have found this to be true, for the most part:

>>It wouldn't be quite correct to generalize, however, that all East German guns were inferior in quality. At one time, to avoid competition, the major brands collected under the Ernst Thellman umbrella (which was really first and foremost a way of keeping Suhl gunmaking as close to old traditions as was possible while maintaining a Socialist facade), were given different market niches. And Merkel, sadly, was lowest. To compensate, they were given the sport versions of the O/U, which got Olympic fame, but their sporting guns were the cheapest of all. Sauer was better, and Simson best, but the truly best-of-the-best in GDR was Buhag. They could make an A&D boxlock as nice as anyone.<<


https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=295547&page=all

Still I am searching for that website that had tonnes of GDR guns..


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Ah, hah..... Blackbern 575 Arms.....



https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=253367&page=all

Apparently they are defunct? But you might try his phone # or email contact......



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I hunted in West Germany a great deal from 1972 to 1982 and being a "gun nut" I paid attention to the guns my German friends were using. Except for a few guns that were successfully hidden from the authorities after the war, most of the guns they used were made after the war including those mentioned by Raimey above plus Fortuna, Sodia, Brno, and a couple other Austrian makers. Most of the WW2 veteran age hunters used 16-gauge 70mm chambered guns but one of my closest friends did use a 20-gauge 70mm and another used a 12-gauge 70mm chambered gun. Many of the sons of these hunters used 12-gauge 70mm chambered guns and I noticed as time went on, 12-gauge guns became more prevalent and 16-gauge less so. All of these were "kipplauf" guns and O/U became more prevalent with the younger hunters. During all that time I noticed only one hunter using a shot gun that was not a kipplauf, and it was a pump that had a custom stock made to be used by a severely damaged hand. All these postwar guns were perfectly useable and there was no noticeable difference in effectiveness between these and the few prewar guns, except they used modern 2 3/4" shells (2 1/2" shells were easily available for the pre-war guns). Most of the postwar guns were fairly plainly adorned at first, owing to the economic situation and demand for guns to hunt with. As time went on, more and more finely engraved guns started appearing as the economy improved. In my opinion, which may not be shared by others, anyone looking for a German gun to use (especially if changes to choke or other features are planned) should just "buy the gun" without prejudice toward postwar or Eastern Bloc guns. Given the difference in collector prices between older and newer or communist made guns, it is natural that owners of the more costly guns want to consider theirs "better", but at the same time will condemn any change as "ruining" the gun. If you can find a gun you like, for a price you can afford, and can have changes made to make it better meet your needs, there is no reason not to buy it. If you are looking, I suggest you look at Simpson Ltd.
Mike

thank you Mike. I'm looking at Simpson. Am ok getting something in rough shape and shipping it to get chokes bored out. No idea if doing forcing cones will do anything.

I hunt a little, but on average fire less than a box of shells all season.

its an itch i would like to scratch.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...hag-merkel-12ga-sxs.cfm?gun_id=102795596

Here's a BüHag Kerner-Anson platform from 1962 that more than likely would be stout. I have serious reservations that it passed thru Merkel hands. More than likely it was retailed by Kettner. Also, the name H. Kessel in Heidersbach near Suhl and all those numbers are numbers are probably for some export effort. I'll try to lift some fotos.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

If memory serves me correctly, I think this was the mark to be peddled thru Kettner....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Although not in the same vein, but a neat Historical Meffert someone is getting for a deal:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-underlever-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=103331373



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

You guys are good. I am impressed with how much you know and appreciate you sharing your knowledge with me.

another option. AYA. Thoughts?

Yeah, but a quality AyA could be more expensive. You could chase a Belgian variant.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I purchase a number of guns from Simpson's. Read the descriptions look at the pictures and use the closeup feature on their site. If you find one you like give them a call and they will pull it out of inventory and go over it with you on the phone.

I did take a turn through IL and spent two days in the shop, they set me up with a space on the counter to set up my gear. I gave them a long list of rifles and shotguns I wanted to look at. As I finished looking at one they would bring me another. I bought five and they sent the barrels along with me and just shipped butts and actions to my FFL saving me a bunch on shipping.

I've been doing business with them a long time.

Last year I bought a really nice Simson O/U 12ga, the one on the merkel style frame. I always wanted a Merkel 200 with two triggers and ejectors. The Simson gave me everything with a little less engraving at less than half the price.

There are a lot of rough guns but you can find some real gems.

thank you. I will call them.

A couple that seem ok to me are.

first

second

third

cheaper

The last one is cheaper and maybe worked on.

any opinions would be greatly appreciated.
thanks

yet another question. You had mentioned sauer as better than Merkel? They have some, and they look very similar. Also is there a way to ask Simpson to send pics of the barrel flats and the proof marks? i am still looking and am afraid of making too much of a mistake. i just don't want something that blows up in my face. I will be careful about light loads, as I usually shoot 20 gauge guns.

I am sure they would send images or go over it w/ you on the phone. I would ask about the barrel steel type.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I’ve bought several guns from Simpsons. SxS, bolt actions and 22s. I’ve not been disappointed yet. I’m really a novice but I haven’t seen much difference between any of the post war GDR/DDR SXS. Whether Simson or Gbr Merkel. A 1982 Gbr. Merkel did have some stamped internal parts but it worked fine. I’ve kept a 1952 and 1958 Sauer 12ga. One has the “3 Rings” the other the “4 Rings” markings on the barrels. Maybe Krupp and a Russian indicator of the steel or the stamps were handy in a workers paradise? I’ve been happy with a couple of Husqvarna 310 (310AS and 310AN) and Brno ZP47 sidelocks. The Brno have more drop on the stock than I’m used to. The 310AN has a weld to fix a crack in the trigger guard where it screws into the gun that they didn’t notice and I didn’t notice till I took it apart but not a deal breaker. Call them and have the SKU and a salesman will go over the gun with you and answer any questions. They’ll break the gun down and tell you what the markings are on the flats. But they’re not what’s the word? Loonies?? Like all of us here. One time they told me it was a December 1970 gun (12/70). Nope! there was also an 867. And I’m still not sure I decipher a Belgian markings correctly. I’ve got a gunsmith friend who has cleaned the dried grease and opened the chokes for a $$. These guns are far better than a Stevens 311 and see what people want for them.

DBH1956, or anyone else,
what do the rings markings on the barrels mean.

I listed a few guns on an earlier post. Anyone have any idea about them? I think there are at least 2 I would ask about. Do you think if I asked the Salesman which one seemed better it would be a good idea? After all, they look at guns all day.

I hope the Krupp three rings markings on this 1950 dated Sauer 12ga. mean they are pre-war barrels. The four olympic style rings on a 1958 Sauer 12ga mean a soviet steel. At least that is what I have read here. But think about East Germany just 5 years after the war. What a mess it must have been. But it's a nice utilitarian gun. Straight English stock, a little over 28" barrels, both a few ounces under 7lbs, and both lock up tight. The 1950 has thick reddish varnish like I have seen on some Mosin Nagant rifles. I like them and find them very interesting. I always want more! Sorry for the large pictures it's been a while since I posted pictures.

thank you all. got #2 from the list i posted. should have it in my hands in a few days or next week. Forgot to ask about the rings.

Appreciate all the advice and help i got on this board.

The 3 Rings are Krupp 3 Ringe Weapons Grade, usually found on Sauer platforms as Sauer & Krupp were very, very chummy.

4 Rings is a Post War attempt to mimic 3 Ringe Steel & @ one time we thought it was a Russian Source, but some Russian researchers say it wasn't Russia?? Not sure, but for sure Post WWiI.

Typically reads „Spezial Weapons Stahl S.G. 1 50A“

>>Yes, 4-rings was related to material, according to some Soviet publications in press it was Russian barrel steel 50A (S.G.1).
But there is one question where did GDR get barrel steel when all pre-war and war time German steel stock got empty? Definatly from USSR. There were 3 types of Russian barrel steel for hunting weapons: 50A, later 50AR and chrome-nickel steel 30CrN2МF (Boler Blitz analog) mostly on GDR Merkel's and other high grade GDR guns.
The story with 4 rings "Krupp" steel is not quite clear. Guns for export to the West or because Krupp family was in West Germany and claimed ther rights for 3-ring trademark.<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=172507#:~:text=There%20were%203%20types%20of,other%20high%20grade%20GDR%20guns.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Steel Stamp of >>Special Gewehr Lauf Stahl S?<<



I was able to acquire the BüHag I posted from GunsInternational. Interesting that in 1962, or thereabouts, it was imported into Japan, hence the long datastring on the water-table. Then it was brought back to Iowa by a GI.

72 cm stellar tubes and 36 cm LOP. I just am unsure if it has been fired.

What is interesting about this BüHag is that it is only a >>Qualität 1<< when it should be higher like >>S<<, etc.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

That is a lovely BuHag. It looks new.

I don't see any rings on the barrels.

Going to clean it up and freshen the stock. the gun balances well and if I actually look at the target and not the gun does it's thing.

Taking it to a gunsmith next week to have him clean it out. The safety is stiff and it could use a cleaning.

Safeties are always stiff. Make sure to get some oil, lubricant, whatever n the slide and anywhere else you can slather it.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I assume the crack in the panel @ the overhanging scear is from dry snapping?





I really do not see any circular marks @ all noting a shotshell being fired? Just vertikal troughs from the strikers protuding. I guess I could get a foto of the strikers protruding....

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The tubeset weighs 1.424 grammes(a Sister BueHag I have from 1956 has a tubeset that weighs 1.452 grammes being almost the same and the forends will exchange) and the whole lot weighs 3.02 gammes.

The forend of the BueHag has an interesting point & I will post it.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Top Forend is 1962 / Bottom 1956(Tubeset Steel Stamp reads >>Special Gewehr Lauf Stahl S? - Simson(Script)<<

Note the sharper shaped tip; not as rounded.



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Regarding the tubeset steel type, the 1956 BueHag of which I am a custodian & have dispatched oodles of winged fowl, it clearly is stamped „Special Weapons Stahl S? Simpson(Script)“ and I cannot discern what the character is after the >>S<<?? But the character following the >>S<< is not a >>G<<.

The 1962 BüHag reads the same but omits the Script >>Simson<<.

I will dig a bit on the steel stamps.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Looks like Simson was propagated via this Russian umbrella:

>>Simson with S.A.G.(Sowietische Aktien Gesellschaft) Awtowelo stamp, Staatliche Aktiengesellschaft Awtowelo Werk vormals Simson & Co; Suhl (Thür.) from March 5th, 1947 till January 1968.<<

And Paul Jaeger looks to have been involved too:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=238521

"Special Gewehr Lauf-Stahl SG1"


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...g1---12-gauge.cfm?gun_id=103007369#md-11

Here's a Sauer w/ the 4 Ringe Stamp atop the tubes. But I am looking for the sister stamp on the underside of the tubeset.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Here's a (Vorm) Sauer stamped w/ 4 Rings & >>SPECIAL GEWEHR LAUF-STAHL S.G.1/LÄUFE INNEN HARTVERCHROMT/SPECIAL GEWEHR<< which notes a Chrome component.

I just do not understand why they don't publish the date....


https://www.rockislandauction.com/d...ief-engraved-jp-sauer-sohn-double-barrel


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

One of our Merry Band has published this:

https://shotguncollector.com/2019/01/22/%d0%bc%d0%b8%d1%84%d1%8b-%d1%80%d0%be%d1%81%d1%81%d0%b8%d0%b9%d1%81%d0%ba%d0%be%d0%b3%d0%be-%d0%be%d1%80%d1%83%d0%b6%d0%b8%d0%b5%d0%b2%d0%b5%d0%b4%d0%b5%d0%bd%d0%b8%d1%8f-%d1%82%d1%80%d0%b8-%d0%ba/

>>It is an early post WWIi Sauer made of old Sauer components. The real J.P. Sauer was in West Germany by now. It wears the 4 Ringe Steel Stamp that was supposed to ride on the coat-tails of the Krupp 3 Ringe Weapons Grade Steel that Sauer had the exclusive right to make tubes and fit to their receivers. This was just an attempt to mimic the 3 Ringe Steel and assure the end user that the tube steel was quality. But there are 2 schools of thought on the 4 Ringe steel. One is that bar stock was sourced from Russia as circa 1953 the mechanics in Suhl all but revolted due to lack of quality components to make their wares. They were making reparation lonigarms and had used up all of their pre-WWII stock. The clues for the source of the 4 Ringe Stahl came from a Russian and now I think those sources have all passed. The new Russian research group gives that the 4 Ringe Stahl did not come from Russia but cannot say just where it was sourced. So the steel would have to be analyzed and compared to other similar steel recipes of the time. But who wants to lop off a couple inches of their tubes for the analyzation?

The longarm passed thru the Suhl proof facility in May of 1957 with 70mm chambers & Nitro proof. To be honest it looks like the tubes wear earlier German proofs higher on the tubes. Maybe the mechanics didn't know exactly what steel it was & conjured up the idea of the 4 Ringe Stahl & stamped it on the tubes? But for the pre-WWII Krupp steel, there were strict rules regarding what was to be applied to the tubes. There was an agreement between the steel maker & the mechanic making the tube on the specific text that was to be applied.<<

>>I have read that the 4 Ringe Spezial Weapons Grade Steel was a Bochum Verein recipe??<<

>>After doing some deep diggin', and considering this example and others from the period, it appears that putting the Vier Ringe Spezial Stahl stamp on a tube may have been a veiled attempt to mask the actual tube steel as Krupp as banned post 1945 & the West German makers held fast with the rules. But in East Germany it appears the mechanics were either a bit more devious, forced to be such, but if something like Krupp steel or bar stock with which they were unsure, they just slathered Vier Ringe Spezial Stahl on it & sent it on. Too, it is possible that the ban on Krupp Steel was circumvented and remembering that Krupp up to WWII did have 4 different types of steel, that the odd Vier Ringe Spezial Stahl stamp was applied?<<

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/jp-sauer-sxs-12-gauge.547473/

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

On the Sauer, made in Germany, with „VORM. J.P. SAUER & SOHN-SUHL“, on the tubes with the 4 Ringes, I am told this was the West German true J.P. Sauer so if both East & West German Gunmaking centres were using 4 Ringe Spezial Gewehr Läuf Stahl, then maybe Bochum Verein was the culprit?



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

And since Bochumer Verein is purported to be one of the leading manufacturers of wheels and wheelsets since the beginning of the rail age, then maybe the 4 Ringe Stamp is that of Bochum Verein Rail Wheelsets??


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

i don't know anything, but it seems to me the barrels are excellent. ring wnen tapped, shoot to point of aim with good even patterns.

Alright, nix the thought of anything to do w/ Bochumer Verein. And forget the J.P. Sauer might have been made in West Germany as there is a TW notes originating @ the Thälmann Werke(VEB)-GDR facility in Suhl. The adornment and engraving on the GDR Vormals J.P. Sauer was by Guenter Helmuthhäuser.

The use of the 4 Ringe Gewehr Lauf Stahl was an attempt to deceive the end user was getting tubes of the same Quality as the coveted 3 Ringe Gewehr Lauf Stahl by Krupp. 4 Ringe Special Gewehr Lauf Stahl - Gewehrlaufstahl was actually made @ Edelstahlwerk Freital and sourced from Edelstahlwerk Freital. So that is the word from the authority in Suhl.

>>ESW<< denotes Edelstahwerek.

>>BGH - Freital Edelstahl<< supplied steel to Ernst Thälmann Werke and other mechanics in Suhl.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Evidently, the switch from Krupp Steel or Böhler Steel to Edelstahlwerk Freital 4 Ringe Gewehr Lauf Stahl / 4 Ring Weapons Grade Barrel Steel was all due to economics. East Germany had a shortage of foreign currency and had to source inland. Scrap Metal quality varied vastly and there was a dip in quality and everyone including the end user was forced to embrace the change. This is exactly the reason that many German Collectors give a hard knock on GDR weapons platforms.

Merkel may have been the exception and was not under the Ernst Thalmann Werke umbrella and was able to negotiate their barrel steel?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I believe the term "INNENHARTVERCHROMT" means the bore was hard chrome plated rather than a chrome component in the steel.
Mike

Could be Ford, could easily be.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Too, what is of interest is that the 1956 BüHag with the straighthand stock weights 6 lb 13 oz &
the Sister 1962 BüHag weights 6 lbs 11 oz on my Kat Certified Kitchen Scales.

Really no difference less the stock style. Everything else is essentially the same.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Sauer & Oskar Merkel did partner from time to time on projects.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

To me on this 1962 Bühag, it appears that the muzzle has not experienced a muzzle blast? just too clean?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse