doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com H. Pieper Monobloc Hammer Cape Gun in 8.9mm

Direct Copy of translation by R.A. Steindler:

>>At the end of the proof load tables there is yet another listing of five re-enforced proof loads for rifled barrels, in this case Express barrels based on the same system. We list but a few of these tables here for comparison, and the difference between smoothbore and rifled barrels in the same caliber or bore diameter should be noted.


For calibers not listed in the proof load table, the person submitting a gun for proof must furnish load data in writing , as well as suitable cartridges, free of charge, to the proof master.<<

Also, remember that the proof facility would proof the tube with the largest cartridge that would fit the chamber.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Another tid-bit of info on the German Proof Process, when a weapons platform is stamped with the U surmounted by a Crown, that signifies that the whole of the weapon was inspected in full, stem to stern, not just the single element that experienced proof. The platform is treated as a whole, an ensemble or sum of the whole of the components, not just individual pieces.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

How 'bout this thought, or revelation: It is the >>Express Barrels<< that are proofed/proved to a certain level, not particularly the kalibre. So in fact, one could use an >>Express Barrel<< that passed >>Express Proof<< for a diameter of 99.7(9,14mm)?? Now it may be that I am the only one leading the charge from behind???

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Post 1939, forward a bit of where we have been, all centralfire shoulder weapons were to wear a DIN(Deutsches Institut für Normung) designation, which was a steel type stamp indicating hardness. This is why the makers applied a Steel Type stamp, which was more than just advertising. I wouldn't mind seeing their charts for the steel characteristics associated with each steel type stamp.

Replacement parts that required special tools to attach were to be stamped w/ an >>E<< noting Ersatz or replacement.

Too, arms voluntarily summitted for reproof that typically didn't fall in the obligatory category, after reproof were stamped Eagle over >>FB<< or Freiwilliger Beschuss.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I think the makers may have been already been applying the steel type stamp post 1911 for the same DIN(Deutsches Institut für Normung) designation, noting the steel characteristics, even though it may not have been in the 1910/1911 German Rules.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I wasn't aware of DIN standards, even in a modern context, so thank you for the prompt to do some googling. Below is google verbatim, not my words:

In 1920, steel designation in Germany was in its infancy, transitioning from DI-Norm (Deutsche Industrienorm), established in 1918, to the earliest DIN (Deutsches Institut für Normung) standards. Early designations focused on structural and fastener steels, often using a "St" prefix (e.g., St 37).
3
Initial Designation: The first standards, starting in 1918, were referred to as DI-Norm, with the first standard (DI-Norm 1) being approved for tapered pins.

The Transition: By the 1920s, the "DI-Norm" was becoming "DIN" as the organization (formerly NADI, founded 1917) began publishing more industrial standards.

Steel Identification: Early standards in the 1920s began covering steel for specific industrial applications like flanges (e.g., early DIN 2501 for pressure).

Common Format: While numeric material numbers (Werkstoffnummern) became dominant later, early steel grades often relied on identifying the minimum tensile strength, such as St 37 (indicating a tensile strength of
kgf/mm²).

Early DIN standards often focused on dimensions and material requirements for engineering components, laying the foundation for modern German Industrial Standards

I could not find a table outlining steel characteristics by German standard, but this link has some info:

https://www.google.com/search?q=whe...CALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Now that is some most interesting info and a welcome addition. Appears my reading list has grown rather lengthy.

I do wonder who make the call on the steel type for a specific chambering?? Many times, a Steel Type points to a maker like Röchling tubes more than likely will be found on Krieghoff.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Back to the >>Express Barrels<<, their proof & export from Belgium and importation into Germany, it seems that the tube/barrel is what MUST be >>Express<< Proofed. So, in my mind and as in the beginning, there were just a handful of cartridges and taking a literary license, the proof effort was more closely connected to the diameter of the tube rather than the cartridge. And considering that there were just a select few of >>Express Cartridge<< that their proof too was based on tube diameter rather than actual cartage, as in the muzzle-loader realm/process but Bullet weight dependent. As I said, Germany hastily cobbled together a set of Prof Rules morphed into Law, being a copy of British, French & Belgian rules and then sharpened it and poked Belgium in the eye every chance they got. Regarding Powder, Germany considered Bigger Grain to be Better and demanded that Belgium, and its finer grain powder, step up to the plate with larger grain. But Otto Maretsch said Germany's Large Grain Powder was probably lower pressure than that of Belgium's finer grain and much of the German Larger Grain Powder wasn't being converted and was blowing out the end, resulting in just Big Talk, Big Noise and little substance. Too, the reason Germany was chomping @ the Bit to have Proof Law as they were about to be kicked to the curb by those countries that DID have Proof Law, and Germany did not want to lose that business, so the Suhl mechanics were the driving force.

Anyway, after several updates of the Belgian Proof Rules, and in order for Belgium to get their wares into Germany, which was a huge market & coveted in Germany, Belgium had to adopt German Proof Tables to achieve this. Remember that Germany did not make any tubes/barrels at this time but rather imported rough bored tubes from Liége. And considering from the >>Express Barrel<< Proof Table, a 9,14mm diameter tubes was proofed with the following considerations:

99,7(Gauge) 9.14(mm-Bore) 0.360"(Bore Diameter) 9,75 (grammes(1st Proof)) 11,2(grammes(Bullet)) 6,5(grammes(2nd Proof))
with the same 11,2 gramme bulet

Service Load - 3,25 Grammes of Powder with 8,4 Gramme Bullet

So this data is what a 9,14 mm diameter >>Express Rifled<<Tube was pass proof for a 8,4 gramme bullet. And an >>Express Rifled Barrel<< would not be imported into German without this Belgian Proof Text. I have not idea what bullet weight a 9,3X47R centres around, but I don't think it matter as long as the tube was blanket >>Express<< Proofed in the 99.7 Gauge realm. More than likely all 9mm kaliber barrels(rifled of course) destined for Germany were subject to this blanket proof. One set of proof data for all 9,14 mm Express Rifled Barrels???


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Now it is entirely possible that gauges akin to the following are contained within the >>Express Rifle<< Proof Tables as I just have not seen a complete version.

51.05 11.43 mm
54.61 11.18 mm
58.5 10.92 mm
62.78 10.67 mm
67.49 10.41 mm
72.68 10.16 mm
78.41 9.91 mm
84.77 9.65 mm
91.83 9.40 mm
99.70 9.14 mm
108.49 8.89 mm
118.35 8.64 mm
129.43 8.38 mm
141.95 8.13 mm
156.14 7.87 mm
172.28 7.62mm

But again, the proof effort is heavily connected to the bore diameter not the cartridge.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Unequivocally, if a Belgian tube is stamped >>Express<<, the platform was destined for the German Market.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse